Originally posted by flindbar:
Here is a new PrC for people to have a gander at.
Thoughts and comments appreciated as usual.
BIG thanks to Kamelion for the assistance.
Hope I’ve got the board “standard formatting” correct. 
The Renegade Templar
“Our great and mighty king is a corruption, staining the fabric of Athas. After all the things I have seen I cannot stand by and do nothing, I am Hamanu’s puppet no more!”
- Daitol, Renegade Templar, to a select few in the back room of the Golden Kank, Urik.
A renegade templar is a templar who has suffered a crisis of conscience and turned away from his sorcerer-monarch to follow a different path – that of the elements or the spirits of the land. The renegade templar learns techniques and abilities that conceal his decision from those who might betray him and develops a growing connection with his new patron. Every day of a renegade templar’s life is filled with danger. The threat of discovery and the harshest of penalties that would follow, make the renegade templar watchful, self-reliant and necessitate a high degree of self confidence to keep up the masquerade.
The renegade’s new life nearly always begins after a traumatic event or life changing experience causing him to have a “crisis of conscience”.
This can range from seeing large scale defiling, to dragon magic of a sorcerer-king used against a friend or family member, to having to commit the murder of innocents.
Although the crisis can sometime involve a change of alignment, this is not always the case.
After the crisis, he is determined to work against the sorcerer-king, trying to set right the wrongs he may have committed. As the renegade progresses, he learns new ways to cast spells, he gains contacts and powerful friends as well as some useful abilities to aid him to work in secret.
All this is weighed up against the risk of being caught.
Renegades can be of any race that act as templars within their home city. It is usual for the sorcerer-king to choose the races that he wishes to represent him. Humans are common. Other races such as half-elves, mul, and dwarves are more uncommon, with pureblood elves being the rarest of templars. Any other race is almost unheard of.
Renegades are dangerous and secretive individuals who are driven to combat the reign of the sorcerer-kings from within. Their unique place within the any given templarate makes them incredibly valuable allies to an individual, group or organization wishing to strike against the rule of the sorcerer-king or queen.
Although it is usual to find them deeply embroiled within the politics and powerplays of city life, they can occasionally be found outside one of the major cities, usually completing specific missions.
Ex-Renegades
Once choosing this path, a renegade templar will never again acquire more levels as templar. The concentration and diligence required to advance as a renegade means that a character may not advance in any other class whilst progressing as a renegade. If he ever decides that the pressure is too great and enough is enough, he will make final preparations to leave and disappear with the aid of his contacts and allies. He may then advance as any other class he chooses, but he may never return to his life as a renegade templar. He retains all the class abilities and may add his levels of templar and renegade to a new divine spell casting class if he chooses that option.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements
To qualify to become a renegade templar a character must fulfil all the following criteria :-
Alignment:Any non-evil.
Attributes: Cha 13.
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Bluff 8 ranks, Forgery 6 ranks.
Feats: Iron Will.
Special:Must have faced a “crisis of conscience” leading him to reject the rule and service of his sorcerer-monarch.
Class Skills:
The renegade templar’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Bluff (Charisma), Concentration (Constitution), Diplomacy (Charisma), Forgery (Intelligence), Gather Information (Charisma), Hide (Dexterity), Intimidate (Charisma), Listen (Wisdom), Move Silently (Move Silently), Profession (Wisdom), Sense Motive (Wisdom), Spellcraft (Intelligence).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
CL . .BAB . . F . . R . . W . . Special . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Spells
1st . . +0 . +0 . +0 . +2 . . Forge Authority & Alternate Spell Source . +1 divine spell casting class
2nd . . +1 . +0 .+0 . +3 . . Mask Thoughts
3rd . . +2 . +1 . +1 . +3 . . Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 divine spell casting class
4th . . +3 . +1 . +1 . +4 . . suggestion
5th . . +3 . +1 . +1 . +4 . . Seeming . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 divine spell casting class
6th . . +4 . +2 . +2 . +5 . . Safe House
7th . . +5 . +2 . +2 . +5 . . Subversion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 divine spell casting class
8th . . +6 . +2 . +2 . +6 . . Allies
9th . . +6 . +3 . +3 . +6 . . Divine Grace . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 divine spell casting class
10th . +7 . +3 . +3 . +7 . . mind blank
Class features
All of the following are class features of the renegade templar prestige class.
Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: Renegade templars gain no proficiency with any weapon or armour.
Forge Authority: At 1st level, the renegade templar has learned to forge documents with sufficient skill that he can act as though he possesses written authority by a superior. He gains a +4 competence bonus on Forgery checks.
In addition to documents or other written materials, the renegade templar must fashion a new sigil, which has no link to his sorcerer-monarch, but still enables him to use his Secular Authority ability. This allows the character’s renegade templar levels stack with his levels in the templar class for the purposes of uses of Secular Authority.
Alternate Spell Source: As a result of the “crisis of conscience” the renegade templar rejects the use of the sorcerer-monarch’s magic and replaces it with an elemental or druidic source from which to now draw upon the magic to power his spells. If he chooses to cast clerical spells, the renegade must select a patron element and choose appropriate domains. Whilst still using the correct gestures and exhortations to appear as though still a templar, the renegade templar’s magic is of a clerical or druid nature. He must be mindful, therefore, of his ability to blend in with normal templars, when he selects his spells.
His spell progression and spell list become that of a cleric or druid of a level equal to his templar and renegade templar levels added together.
Example : A 7th-level templar who takes a level of renegade to become a templar 7 / renegade templar 1 would have the spell list, spellcasting abilities and spell progression of an 8th-level cleric (or druid).
Mask Thoughts: At 2nd level, the renegade templar has learned to hide his surface thoughts and gains a +4 bonus to Will saves to resist effects that would read his thoughts.
Contact: Renegade templars have the privilege of acquaintances that will do favors for them. The use of contacts is restricted to a number of times per week equal to the renegade templar’s class level divided by three, rounded down. The DM has final say on the extent of favors that may be extracted.
The following list provides sample uses of contact.
- Additional 5% discount on purchased goods.
- Access to purchase and sell black market goods.
- Access to hire mercenary of trader’s desired race and class.
- Access to purchasing spellcasting services.
- Access to information (equal to Gather Information DC 20)
- Access to forged materials (equal to Forgery DC 20)
- Access to decipher (equal to Decipher Script DC 20)
- Access to other expert (skill check DC 20. DM’s discretion)
- Appointment or meeting with an NPC
(templar, noble, gladiatorial slave, chieftain etc. DM’s discretion). - Access to a place to stay hidden for three days.
- Avoid templar inspection.
Suggestion (Sp): At 4th level, the renegade templar gains the ability to implant a suggestion as per the 2nd-level wizard spell of the same name, once per day for every two points of Charisma bonus. A successful Will save negates the effect (DC 12 + the renegade templar’s Cha modifier).
Seeming (Su): At 5th level, the renegade templar has managed to develop a supernatural ability to leave a false trail of surface thoughts that will foil all but the most powerful magics or psionics. If interrogated in this way, the renegade templar will appear to be on the legitimate business of his sorcerer-monarch. His own thoughts are deeply buried and the false trail will always be plausible and relevant to the location. The renegade templar must make a Concentration check every other round to maintain the false memory with the DC being 10 plus the spell or power level used against him plus the relevant ability modifier.
Safe House (Su): With the help of his contact and friends, the renegade templar has managed to set up an undetectable refuge either inside or near to the city of his sorcerer-monarch. The safe house has several entry / exit points and is always reasonably provisioned. Whilst inside the safe house, the renegade templar’s location and thoughts are always undetectable through any magical or psionic effect.
Subversion (Su): At 7th level, the renegade templar gains a supernatural ability to temporarily subvert the rule of the sorcerer-monarch to his own ends. The ability affects all creatures, regardless of HD within a 15-foot radius. The effects of this ability are very similar as the 8th-level wizard spell mass charm monster except for the duration, which is much shorter and lasts for 1 round per point of Charisma bonus. This is a supernatural ability usable once a week for every 4 renegade templar class levels. The renegade templar must be able to speak or communicate with the intended targets for the ability to work. A successful Will save negates the effect (DC 10 + renegade templar’s class level + the renegade templar’s Cha modifier).
Allies: The renegade templar gains the favor of an organization, tribe, planar creature or a powerful individual. The frequency and extent of favors he may call upon will vary (for example, spending the night under the protected tents of an elven tribe is a small favor, while asking for a caravan raid in which several tribe members will perish is a large favor). The DM determines how often the renegade templar can call upon his allies for aid without losing their favor. The maximum monetary value of the favor cannot exceed 1,000 Cp.
Divine Grace: At 9th level, the renegade templar can apply half his Charisma bonus as a divine bonus to all saving throws.
Mind Blank (Sp): At 10th level, the renegade templar has the ability to impose a mind blank (as per the 8th-level wizard spell) upon himself, at will.
Spells: Beginning at 1st level and at every odd level after that, the renegade templar gains new divine spells per level according to the table above.
-f 
Originally posted by megatherion:
Diplomacy ranks are used instead of character level for the Secular authority.
Perhaps 10+renegade templar level+cha modifier?
The rest is excellent, I really like this one! 
Originally posted by Sysane:
Ah, a divine myrmeleon like PrC. Nice. I’ll look at it closer later
Originally posted by Kamelion:
Not for uses per day, where it is based on level: “Once per day per templar level, a templar can use secular authority within his city state.” (DS3e Core Rules).
The formula in the class directly mimics the save for a 2nd-level spell (the usual approach for spell-like abilities), but scaling it with class level instead might also be a good idea.
Flindbar has a really strong concept here, imho. A little bit of Pavek is always good …
Originally posted by Sysane:
I sort of have an issue with the alternate spell source ability. Even with the mechanic as written, a SK would realize that they weren’t granting the character his spells. Yes, its unlikely that the SK would even know who the character is, but still. I think that same anonymousness would also allow the character to still gain spells from the SK till their “cover” was blown.
Originally posted by megatherion:
My mistake, i thought he was talking of the strength of the secular authority.
Originally posted by flindbar:
[quote]Perhaps 10+renegade templar level+cha modifier?
The rest is excellent, I really like this one! [/quote]
The suggestion effect really just duplicates the wizard spell of the same name and therefore has the same save except for using charisma instead of intellegence.
Glad you like it though.
Originally posted by Sysane:
I’m not really keen on the divine grace ability. It just seems out of place for the concept of this PrC. I’d suggest bumping one of the lower level abilities to to replace that one at that particular level and add either of the following:
templars cunning: At X level, a renegade templar adds his class level as a competence bonus to all bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive checks.
resilient mind: The renegade templar has steeled his mind in order to protect his serects against unnatural influances. At X level, a renegade templar receives a +2 morale bonus to saves against telepathic powers and enchantment/charm spells.
Just some suggestions. Take them or leave them
Originally posted by flindbar:
[quote]I’m not really keen on the divine grace ability. It just seems out of place for the concept of this PrC. I’d suggest bumping one of the lower level abilities to to replace that one at that particular level and add either of the following:
templars cunning: At X level, a renegade templar adds his class level as a competence bonus to all bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive checks.
resilient mind: The renegade templar has steeled his mind in order to protect his serects against unnatural influances. At X level, a renegade templar receives a +2 morale bonus to saves against telepathic powers and enchantment/charm spells.
Just some suggestions. Take them or leave them [/quote]
I’ll take and consider any suggestions people have to offer.
I appreciate all feedback.
I think the resilient mind is an interesting option.
Originally posted by Sysane:
[quote]I’ll take and consider any suggestions people have to offer.
I appreciate all feedback.
I think the resilient mind is an interesting option. [/quote]
What were your throughts to my original post of the Alternate Spell Source ability?
Originally posted by megatherion:
The way RaFotDK depicits the sigil is this - it’s a link from the templar to the SK, and a direct one at that. The Tribe of One used a concept of the ring that alloved the assassin to contact Nibenay because he was no templar and had no sigil.
If you remove the sigil you theoretically remove the link and the SK might or might not know what you’re doing. However, if we take RaFotDK as canon, once in SKs domain he can read your thoughts and there’s no hiding. Once a templar always a templar.
Originally posted by flindbar:
Does the statement above mean that the SK is almost omniscient ??
If you consider the number of templars that any given SK has … it must be hundreds, maybe to the order of 600 - 700 even.
Are they really able to know that a few of them are not using them as a power source ??
IMHO they could probably sense their templars if they specifically concentrated, but I’m guessing maybe a location and a general status 
Also how would the SK tell if the templar was using a different spell source or just simply not cast a spell that day ?
The way templar magic works IIRC is that the templar grasps his sigil and “calls” for the SK for the power to cast the spell. ie there is no permanent link.
I guess the biggest point is that the renegade has chosen not to use the SK’s power. He sees it as coming from a corrupt source and no longer wishes to be associated with the (ab)use of that power.
I guess the whole question of the extent of an SK’s power is as yet undefined.
Originally posted by flindbar:
I had worked on this basis.
There are (well…there were ) soooooooo many threads on whether RaFoaDK should or should not be canon.
I can never remember from one day to the next
Originally posted by megatherion:
Up to the DM to decide.
[quote]If you consider the number of templars that any given SK has … it must be hundreds, maybe to the order of 600 - 700 even.
Are they really able to know that a few of them are not using them as a power source ??[/quote]
No of course not. Depends on the SK, some grant spells automatically, others mnight ask each templar what it’s for. But if you use alternate source, you’re not asking him anything and he won’t know unless you talk to him face to face and he reads your mind.
Dependas if the templar in question was chosen in one manner or another. If the SK keeps an eye on him, he’ll know. If it’s a generic templar then probably won’t.
he’ll read your mind, that’s the ONLY way to know it.
Yes and no. No permanent link when cassting, but being accepted into the templarate could by some be described as the permanent link. If the SK ever gets curious about you he’ll be able to find you wherever in the world you are and no matter you cast off the evil ways and accepted druidry for example. But it’ll be trouble for him. If you keep the sigil, he’ll locate you immediately.
Up to DM, as I said.
Originally posted by Sysane:
[quote]Does the statement above mean that the SK is almost omniscient ??
If you consider the number of templars that any given SK has … it must be hundreds, maybe to the order of 600 - 700 even.
Are they really able to know that a few of them are not using them as a power source ??
IMHO they could probably sense their templars if they specifically concentrated, but I’m guessing maybe a location and a general status [/quote]
I don’t think that the SKs is omniscient exactly, but do feel they would know who they were channelling divine energy to if they consciously chose to do so.
[quote]Also how would the SK tell if the templar was using a different spell source or just simply not cast a spell that day ?
The way templar magic works IIRC is that the templar grasps his sigil and “calls” for the SK for the power to cast the spell. ie there is no permanent link.[/quote]
I don’t think its a matter that the SK would realize that the templar was using a different spell source, but that he would realize the templar wasn’t using their divine energy.
I don’t know if this was documented, but I thought in 2e it was stated the higher the level of spell the templar cast the more likely the SK was aware of the divine energy being syphoned.
[quote]I guess the biggest point is that the renegade has chosen not to use the SK’s power. He sees it as coming from a corrupt source and no longer wishes to be associated with the (ab)use of that power.
I guess the whole question of the extent of an SK’s power is as yet undefined. [/quote]
I admit that it is a rather gray area for the most part
Originally posted by megatherion:
IF they saw him casting! If he’s outside, who knows where, and is using clerical or druidic magic, they would not sense the pull for their magic and wouldn’t be aware of it. If he was right in front of the SK and casting, then and only then would they become suspicious. Providing he’s a low-level templar of course. If he’s a high level one a SK would keep a wakeful eye on him wherever he went and whatever he did.
Originally posted by Sysane:
Exactly. Or if one of the character’s superiors reported directly to the SK bringing him to their master’s attention.
“Hmmm…There’s something odd about that Weaslic character. I must speak with his Greatness on this matter”
Originally posted by megatherion:
Omniscience!
Originally posted by flindbar:
Hence the very high risks involved in advancing to high levels of renegade.
Some good role playing to be had ! 
: 
Originally posted by Sysane:
I missed this.
I can understand that, but what if you made the PrC with more of a neutral outlook vs a good one? That way templars or spies of other SKs could benefit from the PrC in order to infiltrate other city-states temperates.
Originally posted by megatherion:
[quote]Hence the very high risks involved in advancing to high levels of renegade.
Some good role playing to be had ! : [/quote]
There’s nothing wrong in adventuring as a high-level renegade as long as the person pretends he’s a low-level templar and never tries to accuse or judge other templars or nobles. Which e could do, theoretically, if his bluff is in the sky high and if he’s damn careful whom he talks to and what he says. And that his sigil is a masterwork forgery.
Originally posted by megatherion:
[quote]I missed this.
I can understand that, but what if you made the PrC with more of a neutral outlook vs a good one? That way templars or spies of other SKs could benefit from the PrC in order to infiltrate other city-states temperates.[/quote]
This is a very very very tricky question. If the templar spies, such as this one. were “renegades” and pretended they were templars of the other city, why haven’t we ever heard of something like that before? Assuming it’s even possible of course.
One good answer: If another SKs templar would come into the city, that city’s SK would sense other SK’s influence and have the templar killed instantly. However, since in the cities there are a lot of clerics and perhaps even druids, he wouldn’t react so aggressively to use of that kind of spells. Meaning, if you have to send a spy, send a cleric and not your own templar.
Originally posted by Sysane:
[quote]This is a very very very tricky question. If the templar spies, such as this one. were “renegades” and pretended they were templars of the other city, why haven’t we ever heard of something like that before? Assuming it’s even possible of course.
One good answer: If another SKs templar would come into the city, that city’s SK would sense other SK’s influence and have the templar killed instantly. However, since in the cities there are a lot of clerics and perhaps even druids, he wouldn’t react so aggressively to use of that kind of spells. Meaning, if you have to send a spy, send a cleric and not your own templar.[/quote]
The simple answer is that there’s rules about templars switching SKs. If the SK that the templar was loyal to simply stopped granting them spells the new SK would be none the wiser.
Originally posted by megatherion:
In that case, what’s to prevent a situation like this:
SK says to his mid-level templar: “You are not very well known outside the city walls, having spent your life in the templarate bureous, and I will stop granting you spells. I will give you my favourite fire cleric to teach you clerical spellcraft and you will become my spy in another city-state”. Effectively that templar would take the Renegade Templar PrC and none the wiser indeed!
Flindbar, you should take this into account - the reason for switching to this PrC may be literally any so you should take out any alignment restrictions for entering it.
Originally posted by Sysane:
[quote]In that case, what’s to prevent a situation like this:
SK says to his mid-level templar: “You are not very well known outside the city walls, having spent your life in the templarate bureous, and I will stop granting you spells. I will give you my favourite fire cleric to teach you clerical spellcraft and you will become my spy in another city-state”. Effectively that templar would take the Renegade Templar PrC and none the wiser indeed![/quote]
Or the new SK just starts granting the character spells due to not having spells granted to them by another SK.
Originally posted by flindbar:
[quote]I missed this.
I can understand that, but what if you made the PrC with more of a neutral outlook vs a good one? That way templars or spies of other SKs could benefit from the PrC in order to infiltrate other city-states temperates.[/quote]
Oooooooh you must be psychic! - thats the next one I’m working on - Templar Spy! :evillaugh
I’ll post it over the next couple of days hopefully.
Originally posted by megatherion:
Ahhhh, no. No no and no. Ask yourself, if you were a SK, why would you allow another SK’s “ex” templar into your ranks? The very first thing he would do is bring him to him and scan his mind. That wouldn’t work very well.
