Rules of Gladiatorial Matches + New Skill Uses

raddu · October 23, 2015, 3:01am

Originally posted by bengeldorn:

IIRC, athas.org didn’t offer rules for gladiatorial matches, except the rules for the gladiator base class. IMHO, there have to be rules for gladiatorial matches first, in order to design a class that could benefit from it. The following rules are inspired from the contents presented in Complete Warrior. I’m not sure, if the material I’m presenting infringe any copyrights, and it is not my intention to do so. Please contact me, if the presented material does infringe any copyrights.

Before I’m going to present rules for gladiatorial matches, I present new uses of existing Skill.

SKILLS
The following skill descriptions supplement those found in the PLAYER’S HANDBOOK.

BLUFF
You are skilled in provoking an opponent to a rash reaction that worsens the crowd’s attitude towards him.
Provoke a Rash Reaction: You can use Bluff to cause an opponent to a rash reaction during a gladiatorial match. To provoke a rash reaction, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case the target’s moral bonus or penalty is added or subtracted to the roll. The target must be within 30 feet of you and it must be able to see and hear you. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, the target makes a rash reaction that decreases its Crowd Score (See Gladiatorial Matches and the Crowd) by 1.
It’s difficult to provoke a rash reaction from target that doesn’t understand you; you take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a -8 penalty. Against a non-intelligent creature, it’s impossible.
If you succeed the Bluff check by 5 or more points, the target’s Crowd Score decreases by 2 (instead of by 1).
Action: A Bluff check, made to provoke a rash reaction, needs some time for interacting with the target and takes a full-round action.
Try Again: You can retry to provoke a rash reaction, but each additional failed attempt in succession provides the target a +2 bonus on its opposing Sense Motive roll.
Special: A gladiator a gains a bonus based on his gladiator level to his Bluff checks when using this skill to provoke a rash reaction from a target.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Intimidate, you gain a +2 bonus on Bluff checks to provoke a rash reaction.

PERFORM (WEAPON DANCE) (CHA)
You are skilled in wielding your weapon and moving your body to a spectacular display and show off in combat.
This category of the Perform skill covers any sort of weapon display and fluent body movements with weapons, such as gyrating a weapon, flipping a dagger or demonstrating martial art techniques.
Check: Weapon dance is based as well on your charisma as on your combat skills. You can add your half your base attack bonus as a competence bonus to your Perform (weapon dance) checks. Not being proficient with a weapon you are performing a weapon dance with results in a -4 penalty on Perform (weapon dance) checks.
Impressing the Crowd: During a gladiatorial match, you can try to impress the crowd with a successful Perform (weapon dance) check. If you succeed the DC (as indicated on Table 1–1: Impressing the Crowd) with a Perform (weapon dance) check, your Crowd Score (See Gladiatorial Matches and the Crowd) increases by 1. You can perform a weapon dance as part of a standard attack action. If you succeed in both, attack roll and perform (weapon dance) check, your Crowd Score increases by 2 (instead of by 1).
If you fail a Perform (weapon dance) check by 5 or more, your Crowd Score decreases by 1.
Action: Varies. If you’re performing to earn money in public, requires 4 hours of performing with short breaks.
If you try to impress a crowd during a gladiatorial game it takes a standard action. If you use Impressing the Crowd as part of a standard attack action, you suffer a -5 penalty on both, attack roll and perform (weapon dance) check.
Performing a weapon dance provokes attack of opportunities.
Try Again: Yes. Retries are allowed, but they don’t negate previous failures, and an audience that has been unimpressed in the past is likely to be prejudiced against future per¬formances. (Increase the DC by 2 for each previous failure).
Special: The following feats each grant a +2 bonus on relevant Perform (weapon dance) checks: Combat Expertise, Greater Weapon Focus, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, and Whirlwind Attack.
If you use a weapon with your Perform (weapon dance) skill, the greater majority (75 %) of the spectators would count as an exotic weapon, you gain a +2 bonus on your Perform (weapon dance) check. (Performing a weapon dance with a gythka in front of a thri-kreen audience wouldn’t pro¬vide you the bonus, but in front of a human audience would.)
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you get a +2 bonus on Perform (weapon dance) checks.

TABLE 1–1: IMPRESSING THE CROWD
Base Crowd ScoreDC 10+40 8 – 935 6 – 730 4 – 625 2 – 320 -1 – 115 -2 – -314 -4 – -513 -6 – -712 -8 – -911 -10 or worse10
GLADIATORIAL MATCHES
Every city-state has or had a huge arena where thousands gather to watch bloody matches by gladiators, criminals and savage beasts. These arenas are well developed and most can change their battlefield within some minutes. Several types of gladiatorial matches have been developed within the years. Then range varies from one-to-one fights to bloody races. Whatever game is practiced – that’s what a match is commonly named – the spectators can have an influence on the participant gladiators by supporting or hooting them. In the same way, a gladiator is able to influence the crowd’s attitude towards him or his opponent.
A combat counts as a gladiatorial match if at least 20 spectators, none of them being engaged in combat, watch at least two creatures contesting each other.

GLADIATORIAL MATCHES AND THE CROWD
Gladiatorial matches follow the normal rules for combat, but the presence of a crowd can inspire or demoralize a gladiator.
A crowd is a group of at least 20 intelligent (Intelligence score 3 or higher) creatures, none of them being engaged in a combat. The crowd must actively watch the fight of the combatants of a gladiatorial match, cheering or hooting. Based on the actions during the fight of the combatants its attitude towards them may change (See Table 1–2: Crowd Reaction).

TABLE 1–2: CROWD REACTION
SituationCrowd Score Adjustment Combatant… succeeds a Perform (weapon dance) check as part of an attack+2 knocks out opponent+2 confirms critical hit+1 disarms opponent+1 pins opponent+1 succeeds a Perform (weapon dance) check+1 successfully bull rushes opponent at least 10 feet+1 doesn’t attack for 3 successive rounds-1/-1 for each additional round falls prone-1 is being feinted by opponent-1 is demoralized by opponent-1 is pinned by opponent-1 is provoked to a rash reaction (see Bluff)-1 rolls a natural 1-1 defiles-5
The crowd’s attitude varies from booing to cheering, which is represented as Crowd Score. The better the crowd’s attitude towards a combatant is the higher is the combatant’s Crowd Score and therefore the bonus for him. A supporting crowd towards a combatant provides him moral bonuses on attack and damage rolls, a hooting crowd towards a combatant provides him a penalties on attack and damage rolls (See Table 1–3: Crowd Support).

TABLE 1–3: CROWD SUPPORT
Moral Bonus on Crowd ScoreAttack RollsDamage Rolls 10 or better+5+5 9+5+4 8+4+4 7+4+3 6+3+3 5+3+2 4+2+2 3+2+1 2+1+1 1+10 000 -1-10 -2-1-1 -3-2-1 -4-2-2 -5-3-2 -6-3-3 -7-4-3 -8-4-4 -9-5-4 -10 or worse-5-5
The crowd’s attitude at the beginning of a gladiatorial match is based how good it knows the combatant (See Table 1–4: Crowd Score at the Beginning of a Gladiatorial Match) and how much they like him. Each combatant has his own Crowd Score, so it is possible that a crowd cheers two opposing combatants. Neither non-intelligent creatures (Int 0) nor creatures with animal intelligence (1 or 2) have a crowd score, thus they don’t gain or suffer from bonuses or penalties from a crowd.

TABLE 1–3: CROWD SCORE AT THE BEGINNING OF A GLADIATORIAL MATCH
Combatant is a…Starting Crowd Score gladiator½ gladiator level known criminal-1 or worse (based on the crime) unknown0 local hero+2 or more known to use drity tricks (for example poison)-2 or worse Combatant has disobeyed the crowd’s order*-5¹ Combatant has obeyed the crowd’s order*+2¹ * See Victory & Defeat, Life & Death for crowd order ¹ This modifies the starting score.
VICTORY & DEFEAT, LIFE & DEATH
Not every gladiatorial match ends with the death of a combatant. Usually, when a combatant is defeated (usually, when a combatant is disabled or dying), the crowd decides, if he shall life or be killed. The defeated combatant rolls a Crowd Score check against DC 15 (d20 + his Crowd Score before being defeated). If he succeeds the check, the crowd shows its mercy and orders the victorious combatant to let the defeated one live. If he fails the DC, the crowd orders the victorious combatant to kill him. It’s always the victorious combatant’s final call, but disobeying the crowd’s order decreases his Crowd Score by 5. Obeying the crowd’s order increases his Crowd Score by 2.

Designer Notes: These are my ideas so far, but I guess there is still room for improvement, so let you comments comming. PLEASE!

Originally posted by banndon:

Very interesting mechanics… at first it seems a bit complicated though (not that my own attempt was more simple!)

I’m going to give a good look at this…
Would you mind if I tried to see how it integrates with my reforge?

Originally posted by bengeldorn:

I guess, it looks complicated, because its much to read, but IMO it’s not that complicated (but how can I tell, I’m the one who made them)
In addition, I posted it here, so other people can help me to make them less complicated or reword the text for better and easier understanding.

[quote]I’m going to give a good look at this…
Would you mind if I tried to see how it integrates with my reforge?[/quote]
No, I don’t mind. What do you mean with your reforge? The reforged gladiator class?

Originally posted by banndon:

[quote]I guess, it looks complicated, because its much to read, but IMO it’s not that complicated (but how can I tell, I’m the one who made them)
In addition, I posted it here, so other people can help me to make them less complicated or reword the text for better and easier understanding.?[/quote]
One thing that could helpt is to condense things in one or two tables tops.

It’s not entirely MY reforged gladiator. You and Kelsen have helped me quite a bit!

Originally posted by bengeldorn:

As far as I can see it, three would be the minimum, Table 1-1 and Table 1-3 could be merged together, but the others can’t.

The question was more about, if it for a reforged gladiator class or for gladiatorial match rules, but I guess my question is answered either way.

Originally posted by banndon:

[quote]IIRC, athas.org didn’t offer rules for gladiatorial matches, except the rules for the gladiator base class. IMHO, there have to be rules for gladiatorial matches first, in order to design a class that could benefit from it. The following rules are inspired from the contents presented in Complete Warrior. I’m not sure, if the material I’m presenting infringe any copyrights, and it is not my intention to do so. Please contact me, if the presented material does infringe any copyrights.

Before I’m going to present rules for gladiatorial matches, I present new uses of existing Skill.

SKILLS
The following skill descriptions supplement those found in the PLAYER’S HANDBOOK.

BLUFF
You are skilled in provoking an opponent to a rash reaction that worsens the crowd’s attitude towards him.
Provoke a Rash Reaction: You can use Bluff to cause an opponent to a rash reaction during a gladiatorial match. To provoke a rash reaction, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case the target’s moral bonus or penalty is added or subtracted to the roll. The target must be within 30 feet of you and it must be able to see and hear you. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, the target makes a rash reaction that decreases its Crowd Score (See Gladiatorial Matches and the Crowd) by 1.
It’s difficult to provoke a rash reaction from target that doesn’t understand you; you take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a -8 penalty. Against a non-intelligent creature, it’s impossible.
If you succeed the Bluff check by 5 or more points, the target’s Crowd Score decreases by 2 (instead of by 1).
Action: A Bluff check, made to provoke a rash reaction, needs some time for interacting with the target and takes a full-round action.
Try Again: You can retry to provoke a rash reaction, but each additional failed attempt in succession provides the target a +2 bonus on its opposing Sense Motive roll.
Special: A gladiator a gains a bonus based on his gladiator level to his Bluff checks when using this skill to provoke a rash reaction from a target.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Intimidate, you gain a +2 bonus on Bluff checks to provoke a rash reaction.[/quote]
My first observation is one of proportion. How can having a rash reaction is equal (or more) in terms of crowd reaction then not attacking or fighting at all for 3 rounds (or being pinned)?

The mechanics of it is similar to feints…so why in this intence having a lot of combat experience doesn’t count? (high BAB) Wouldn’t keeping cool under stress be more of a Will save than a Sense motive check?

Another consideration: if you make Bluff an important part of gladiatorial matches, it would make sense to give Bluff and/or Sense Motive as class skills to gladiators. But then Grukk the Destroyer with high ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive would also be a shrewd negocitor outside the arena…

[quote]PERFORM (WEAPON DANCE) (CHA)
You are skilled in wielding your weapon and moving your body to a spectacular display and show off in combat.
This category of the Perform skill covers any sort of weapon display and fluent body movements with weapons, such as gyrating a weapon, flipping a dagger or demonstrating martial art techniques.
Check: Weapon dance is based as well on your charisma as on your combat skills. You can add your half your base attack bonus as a competence bonus to your Perform (weapon dance) checks. Not being proficient with a weapon you are performing a weapon dance with results in a -4 penalty on Perform (weapon dance) checks.
Impressing the Crowd: During a gladiatorial match, you can try to impress the crowd with a successful Perform (weapon dance) check. If you succeed the DC (as indicated on Table 1–1: Impressing the Crowd) with a Perform (weapon dance) check, your Crowd Score (See Gladiatorial Matches and the Crowd) increases by 1. You can perform a weapon dance as part of a standard attack action. If you succeed in both, attack roll and perform (weapon dance) check, your Crowd Score increases by 2 (instead of by 1).
If you fail a Perform (weapon dance) check by 5 or more, your Crowd Score decreases by 1.
Action: Varies. If you’re performing to earn money in public, requires 4 hours of performing with short breaks.
If you try to impress a crowd during a gladiatorial game it takes a standard action. If you use Impressing the Crowd as part of a standard attack action, you suffer a -5 penalty on both, attack roll and perform (weapon dance) check.
Performing a weapon dance provokes attack of opportunities.
Try Again: Yes. Retries are allowed, but they don’t negate previous failures, and an audience that has been unimpressed in the past is likely to be prejudiced against future per¬formances. (Increase the DC by 2 for each previous failure).
Special: The following feats each grant a +2 bonus on relevant Perform (weapon dance) checks: Combat Expertise, Greater Weapon Focus, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, and Whirlwind Attack.
If you use a weapon with your Perform (weapon dance) skill, the greater majority (75 %) of the spectators would count as an exotic weapon, you gain a +2 bonus on your Perform (weapon dance) check. (Performing a weapon dance with a gythka in front of a thri-kreen audience wouldn’t pro¬vide you the bonus, but in front of a human audience would.)
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you get a +2 bonus on Perform (weapon dance) checks.[/quote]
As much as I like the fact that you take into account BAB in use of this skill, I think giving also bonuses for related feats a bit redundant. Personnaly, I would keep the later (feats).

The circontence bonus you give for “exotic or not” should be left as DM’s call. It just complicates the rules more than it improves them.

[quote]TABLE 1–1: IMPRESSING THE CROWD
Base Crowd ScoreDC 10+40 8 – 935 6 – 730 4 – 625 2 – 320 -1 – 115 -2 – -314 -4 – -513 -6 – -712 -8 – -911 -10 or worse10
GLADIATORIAL MATCHES
Every city-state has or had a huge arena where thousands gather to watch bloody matches by gladiators, criminals and savage beasts. These arenas are well developed and most can change their battlefield within some minutes. Several types of gladiatorial matches have been developed within the years. Then range varies from one-to-one fights to bloody races. Whatever game is practiced – that’s what a match is commonly named – the spectators can have an influence on the participant gladiators by supporting or hooting them. In the same way, a gladiator is able to influence the crowd’s attitude towards him or his opponent.
A combat counts as a gladiatorial match if at least 20 spectators, none of them being engaged in combat, watch at least two creatures contesting each other.

GLADIATORIAL MATCHES AND THE CROWD
Gladiatorial matches follow the normal rules for combat, but the presence of a crowd can inspire or demoralize a gladiator.
A crowd is a group of at least 20 intelligent (Intelligence score 3 or higher) creatures, none of them being engaged in a combat. The crowd must actively watch the fight of the combatants of a gladiatorial match, cheering or hooting. Based on the actions during the fight of the combatants its attitude towards them may change (See Table 1–2: Crowd Reaction).[/quote]
Would it be easier to please a crowd in a special event than a regular one?

[quote]TABLE 1–2: CROWD REACTION
SituationCrowd Score Adjustment Combatant… succeeds a Perform (weapon dance) check as part of an attack+2 knocks out opponent+2 confirms critical hit+1 disarms opponent+1 pins opponent+1 succeeds a Perform (weapon dance) check+1 successfully bull rushes opponent at least 10 feet+1 doesn’t attack for 3 successive rounds-1/-1 for each additional round falls prone-1 is being feinted by opponent-1 is demoralized by opponent-1 is pinned by opponent-1 is provoked to a rash reaction (see Bluff)-1 rolls a natural 1-1 defiles-5
The crowd’s attitude varies from booing to cheering, which is represented as Crowd Score. The better the crowd’s attitude towards a combatant is the higher is the combatant’s Crowd Score and therefore the bonus for him. A supporting crowd towards a combatant provides him moral bonuses on attack and damage rolls, a hooting crowd towards a combatant provides him a penalties on attack and damage rolls (See Table 1–3: Crowd Support).[/quote]
I like this table. Though I have balance issues, I think it gives a very good idea of what might sway a crowd or not.

[quote]TABLE 1–3: CROWD SUPPORT
Moral Bonus on Crowd ScoreAttack RollsDamage Rolls 10 or better+5+5 9+5+4 8+4+4 7+4+3 6+3+3 5+3+2 4+2+2 3+2+1 2+1+1 1+10 000 -1-10 -2-1-1 -3-2-1 -4-2-2 -5-3-2 -6-3-3 -7-4-3 -8-4-4 -9-5-4 -10 or worse-5-5
The crowd’s attitude at the beginning of a gladiatorial match is based how good it knows the combatant (See Table 1–4: Crowd Score at the Beginning of a Gladiatorial Match) and how much they like him. Each combatant has his own Crowd Score, so it is possible that a crowd cheers two opposing combatants. Neither non-intelligent creatures (Int 0) nor creatures with animal intelligence (1 or 2) have a crowd score, thus they don’t gain or suffer from bonuses or penalties from a crowd.[/quote]
I find those adjustements a bit strong… specially considering that they might stack with a lot of other things…

Though there is no bardic music in DS, a mundane crowd shouldn’t be better than a magical ability from a character…IMHO.

[quote]TABLE 1–3: CROWD SCORE AT THE BEGINNING OF A GLADIATORIAL MATCH
Combatant is a…Starting Crowd Score gladiator½ gladiator level known criminal-1 or worse (based on the crime) unknown0 local hero+2 or more known to use drity tricks (for example poison)-2 or worse Combatant has disobeyed the crowd’s order*-5¹ Combatant has obeyed the crowd’s order*+2¹ * See Victory & Defeat, Life & Death for crowd order ¹ This modifies the starting score.
VICTORY & DEFEAT, LIFE & DEATH
Not every gladiatorial match ends with the death of a combatant. Usually, when a combatant is defeated (usually, when a combatant is disabled or dying), the crowd decides, if he shall life or be killed. The defeated combatant rolls a Crowd Score check against DC 15 (d20 + his Crowd Score before being defeated). If he succeeds the check, the crowd shows its mercy and orders the victorious combatant to let the defeated one live. If he fails the DC, the crowd orders the victorious combatant to kill him. It’s always the victorious combatant’s final call, but disobeying the crowd’s order decreases his Crowd Score by 5. Obeying the crowd’s order increases his Crowd Score by 2.[/quote]
This is pretty sweet!

Overhall, I think it should be simplified. Keep it a more free form system (easier to manage behind the screen). A bit like the Diplomacy skill DC table…

Yes, it can’t frustrate a player if the DM’s is specially stingy, but that will also show in other aspects of the game…so it’s not really a mechanical problem.

Originally posted by bengeldorn:

The idea is, that the one, who has been provoked to a rash rection, makes something preposterous or stupid, or something the crowd would see as being a dumb thing. Maybe the combatant, who provokes another to a rash rection, just offends him, and the provoked one just said something stupid, or in a stupid way. This is basically the idea behind it.

IIRC, you don’t gain your BAB to your faint attempt either, but the opposing one can add his BAB to his Sense Motive check. So far Bluff shouldn’t benefit from BAB, but I have to admit, that the opposed one could add his Base Will Save Bonuse to hi Sense Motive check. Seem’s ok to me. I wouldn’t suggest to allow the full Will save bonus, because those with high Wisdom would benefit from their score twice.

Well, Bluff and Sense Motive should defenitly class skills, for the other part, I could argue that a priest could easley as good as templar in judging others. To bluff someone and to sense another’s motive are IMHO something that is often used in gladiatorial matches.

Well, this is basically based on Complete Warrior’s Perform (weapon drill) skill. I just added the Impress crowd option and the exotic weapon option.

I thought it would be good to give gladiators another reason to wield excotic weapons. I think people are more interested in seeing someone perfectly fighting a unfamiliar weapon, than in those he can wield by himself. This isn’t realy important, but i thought it was a nice idea.

These are circumstances, the DM should give bonuses or penalties.

Many of these ideas are again based on the Complete Warrior’s Galditorial Match rules. I’m not sure how well this all is balanced, but IMO it’s not too easy to increase his crowd score. In additon the combatants would be well advised to try some special manoeuvers, because those are the easiest way to get scores, but usually those maneuvers have their risks. I think, that’s what people would like to see.

Well it doesn’t stack with other moral bonuses that’s for sure. Could be that those bonuses are bit strong, but the maximum is +5, and reaching a crowd score of 10 or more is not as easy as it may look like. At least that’s my feeling. But, how do you think should the bonus look like. The Complete Warrior’s rules provide a max. moral bonus of +2 on attack and damage roll.

Mmmmhhh… maybe the maximum bonus of a crowd should be based on the crowd size. For example, a crowd of 20 individiuals can provide only a moral bonus of +1 at maximum, a crowd of 100 can provide a moral bonus of up to +2, a crowd of 500 can provide a moral bonus of up +3, a crowd of 1000 can provide a moral bonus of up to +4, and a crowd of 5000 or more can provide a moral bonus of up to +5.
Besides that, DS3 bards still have bardic music.

Thank you!

Well, that would be like the Complete Warrior’s gladiatorial match rules, which I cannot post. But I gues your smiley just means that you allready know them.

Well, thank you for you comments so far! It would be great, if you could keep them comming. I didn’t change anything so far, because I wanted to give you impression of my thoughts I had while doing this. This doesn’t necessarily that I’m not going to change anything. If there are good reasons (at best with some suggestions how to change), I’m definatly willing to modify as desired or needed.

Originally posted by banndon:

Oh yeah! they do! my bad!
(I don’t have my printed version of the DS3.5 close by)

…mmmmhh…I’m not a bit fan of bardic music…anyone who has read Order of the Stick can understand how ridiculous it can be sometimes.

They should have given them a shorter spell list instead. Maybe something like the Assassin PrC.

raddu · October 23, 2015, 5:02am

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