Tech Levels on Dark Sun?

Yeah, I disagree with how you draw such a conclusion. The base problem withbsuchba conversation is that IRL, such categories aren’t actually technological levels, they’re time periods and so they’ll NEVER fit another world/set of circumstances.

If you want to say the Green Age reached a level of tech generally consistent with the Renaissance, sure maybe.

But Athas seems to have been knocked back to the technology of the Stone Age. Words fail when you try to describe a post Renaissance-esque Dark Age.

Better to say what they have and do not have.

Also, this whole conversation is pretty Euro-centric (which I’m generally fine with) but the Asians/Chinese were doing “wacky” technological things that make this conversation even more useless, with paper, rockets, etc

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My friend - I disagree with your parsimonious definition of technology. Even if the same era (even today!), levels of social technology differ between countries and regions. A starting point here.

They sure were. Their oriental bureaucracies also better represent the templars than Western tropes as well. In fact, in my work on Ravenloft Kalidnay, I made most of the dominant philosophies those of the east - elementalism (similar to the middle way), legalism (ripped off whole from Qin dynasty China), and virtus (of the Roman sort). Elementalism seeks to avoid extreme actions and thoughts, popular among freemen. Legalism posits that sapients have a propensity to wickedness in the absence of law, therefore the strict application of law is a necessity. Popular among templars. Virtus is the philosophy of the nobility, and the pursuit of virtue, whether martial or otherwise fends off decadence and degeneracy.

So you are right. China cannot be placed nearly into European modalities because it was never in the European modality in the first place. As for Athas, the city states could easily manage a Chinese style examination system bureaucrats. Where it fits on the Eurocentric view or what era, I don’t know.

Anyway, have a read of that article linked and if you are inclined, go down the rabbit hole of social technology. Technology is not only nuts and bolts.

One of the fun things about thinking about the Green and Blue Ages for the Dead Lands Project has been trying to imagine how the world was adapted to “psitech” and before that lifeshaping. Peter Nutall and Will Kendrick had some excellent worldbuilding in the early 2000s for Athas.org 3E fan content that we’ve been largely working off, and expanding on that, we envisioned the Green Age world being vaguely “bronze age” in that metallic weaponry was still somewhat expensive and rare even at the height of Green Age plenty -for example, plate mail was not really a thing.

Overall imagine the Green Age world as a place of decentralized polities, no real empires or “nations” but localized in an intricate network of kinships, alliances, city-states, clans, ethnic enclaves ect with strong centralized local bureaucracies, usually derived from councils or hereditary chiefdoms led by powerful psions. Much like the Blue Age, a dependence on Guardians eventually led to the proliferation of highly socially stratified, technology-dependent city-states where the haves lived in borderline modern luxury (automated households, transportation, ect) but much of the poor and outcast lived in more archaic standards. The automation of farming and other infrastructure probably made things incredibly dire, as there wasn’t even a place for subsistence farmers- many of the humans in the Dead Lands and other southern areas are the “dregs” of humanity who eked out nomadic lifestyles not far removed from the Rebirth 14,000 years before.

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Regarding the Blue Age I very much Peter’s and others’ re-contextualization of it, by having a lot of the problems of the Rhul-Thaun in the modern world extent back to the Blue Age, the Nature Masters as the cause of much of the problem.
Rather than as they (depict themselves) as an enlightened naturalistic utopia, the 3E fandom Blue Age is an eco-dystopian hellhole where dependence on lifeshaping lead the Nature Masters to hold a stranglehold over society under their socially chauvinist ideology, with emphasis on the “purity of the halfling form” and “natural roles” creating a severely stagnant society, and the Nature Benders becoming monsters fighting the Nature Masters rather than just being “evil lifeshapers.” Throw in persecuted early psions, “evil” elemental clerics and other threats to the established order and you have a world that’s a powderkeg.
The Blue Age, going by the canon sources like Mysteries of the Ancients, Psionic Artifacts of Athas, ect is by far the most “high technology” period of Athas- though organic in nature, the Rhulisti have stuff ranging the equivalent of modern military gear and scientific equipment (night vision goggles, gieger counters) to straight up Ridley Scott’s Prometheus style biotechnology, from organic holograms and supercomputers to copyright-safe xenomorph eggs.

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I would make a division in between

  1. Technology level
  2. Level of social/state development
  3. Level of cultural development

Why?
We can look on pre-columbian civilizations. They had tech level as “late stone age”. Mayans had social/state development similar to ancient Greek in classical period. Incas in cosial/state development were similar to Roman Empire or Diadochi Empires. Mayans had own writing system, part work as alphabet, part work as hieroglyphs. Aztecs had more primitive writing system, similar to phonetic and ideographic rebuses. Incas had quipu, but this dont work as normal writing system. Etc. etc. They were more advancend in many places compare to old-world late stone age civilizations, but still were in pure technology only “late stone age”.

So situation “easier alphabet system with steel-less technology, centralizated gov, modern bureaucracy (maybe in style of napoleon age ) and advanced slave economy” will not be problem for me.

In ancient Egypt, period of pyramids, metal was very valuable. After work, tools were weighed to see if workers were stealing bronze. In Israel, in period king Solomon, probably his mines (source of big wealth of Solomon) were mines of copper. So normal peoples had to use stone, rope, bone etc. to own working, but elites and governments had more and often used metals. Even Samson used jawbone of donkey as weapon, and what similar situation had place in some DS novels (IDK where specific). So tech level in style bronze age would be the best option IMO.

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I think the different city states allow for some flexibility in what level of technology each has. I see some of them as more advanced as others and at a different technological “age”.

For example, I see one of the most advanced pieces of scientific tech in Dark Sun during the Bown Age is Nibenay’s orrery. (See Marauders of Nibenay). The technology to create orreries such as the one presented there didn’t appear until the early 1700s. But this is mostly just an isolated case of a SK putting his resources into making it happen. But still represents a pocket of technology beyond that of the Iron Age.

One could argue the tech on Earth was available much sooner with the Antikythera Mechanism (dated as early as 200 BC) but that tech on Earth appears to had been lost for some 1500 years. But still represents tech beyond the Iron Age.

Either way, with the help of magic and psionics a society should be able to get to the advanced scientific techs sooner.

With that, does anyone have any other examples of advanced scientific tech on Athas?

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Maya polities were actually an inspiration for us when thinking about the Dead Lands and politics of the Green Age Tablelands, going off Peter’s work in Wisdom of Sorrow, politics were still concentrated in city states/localized polities but with a massive degree of urbanization, like the classical maya heartland, where you had cities connected by large amounts of infrastructure and very close to each other, but often at each other’s throats and a fragile peace maintained by complex webs of kinships and intermarriages between the psionic elites or bureaucracies of each city.

When the multiracial “Remaan” culture came back to the tablelands about 12,000 ish years before the Brown Age, they brought the lawkeeper system used in Saragar and other places, which is itself derived from old Rhulisti government still used by the Rhul-Thaun, the system caught on via trade and cultural dominance and replaced tribal councils/chieftain-kings with with a pseudo-theocratic or psicratic centralized city bureaucracy. Over time in cities like Tyr, Balic, and Bodach they adopted more egalitarian systems with an elected lawgiver- Republicanism and “Town Hall Democracy” mya have emerged in the upheaval of the Age of Magic.

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Tech wise, from the few canon sources we have, mostly Mind Lords of the Last Sea and a bit in the Tribe of One series, the Green Age was a psionic wonderland even as far back as ten thousand-ish years before the Brown Age- there were apparently psionic horseless carriages, automated homes with hot and cold water and automated desalination plants, rapid-transit via psionic platforms such as the Seaways, ect

That actually works pretty well for a bronze-age setting where “technology” is psionic- the minoans, indus valley civilization and others had extremely sophisticated cities with intricate plumbing systems, public works, hot and cold water and even flush toilets well over 3 to 4 thousands years ago, and centralized redistributive bureaucracies like Egypt saw unprecedented stability and were able to feed huge amounts of people and fund massive international public works (the Pyramids for example were only possible via complex international trade, particularly for copper used in the worker tools). Throw in cultures that completely upend historical narratives like the Indus Valley civ (no apparent elites) and Caral-Supe (a complex urban society in the middle of the peruvian deserts apparently based on maritime resources and lacking ceramics)…

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There’s the tinkercraft of The Darkness Before the Dawn, which is another word for science and its application.

In my book a pump, an obsidian orb servitor, and a silt schooner’s obsidian engine are all examples of tinkercraft. In a world in which psionics are natural, their incorporation into science and engineering should also fall into the science category.

I think the only true supernatural stuff Athas has ever seen was sorcery. Druidcraft and the elements are also natural, in a sense. If geology ever was a thing on Athas, then scientists must have scientifically codified elemental occurrences as part of the natural order of the world.

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Antikythera mechanism?

Both the Antikythera Mechanism and a standard orrery show the position of the planets in relation to each other and the sun in space. However, the (AM) only alloys for a two dimensional representation of the planets. It uses dials/hands on a flat surface to represent the location of planets in space. A standard orrery allows for three dimensional representation in space using spheres attached to rods to represent the planets; Which is what Nibenay’s orrery appears to be more like. (A three dimensional representation) Either way, orreries are a technology beyond that of the Iron Age.

But I think it just represents a pocket of more advanced technology held in Nibenay. Getting “out” of the Iron Age has geographic and cultural dependencies among others.

Antikythera Mechanism (and similar things) were used by ancient peoples more as trinket, curio than normal, functional tool. Similar like in China Empires by long time, very good clockworks mechanismus weren’t used to practical things. Main were used for prestige and graces of emperor (or other VIPs).

This had source in many elements. Eg. lack finding economical aspects of steam engine (eg. Aeolipile) by Romans or Greeks was caused by fact many and inexpensive slaves. Why rich citizen should invent in upgrade some corio with some chances that “in future I will have money from this… maybe…” when they can buy new 10 slaves to faster exploation of mine?

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Agreed. Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs gives us the Chahn Terrorist character kit (oh how innocent the USA was about terrorism in the mid-90s). The Chahn seek to overthrow the life-shaper ruled Rhul-Thaun society because its stagnant and introspective.

When you consider how debased the life-shapers of the Brown Age are, the power over society that the life-shapers of the Rhulisti held must have been terrifying. ‘Oh, your wife is having a difficult pregnancy and you’re worried for your unborn child? Well I could help with that, but you refused to bow to Life Shaper Initiate XX last week so that might be a problem…’

You could look at how the Chinese Communist Party is building an ever more stratified surveillance and control apparatus for society in the PRC as a good example. Then switch technology for life-shaping and dial everything up to 9,000.

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The ancient halfings could well have been reliant on cloning instead of biological reproduction. What is more “lifeshaping” than having clones everywhere? Only people with the “right” traits are allowed to biologically reproduce, which short term may have yielded some benefits, but long term narrowed the breeding stock and weakening the ancient halfings long term (and thus reinforcing reliance on cloning).

The present savage halfings could be the members of the halfling race that dropped out of this stratified halfling society to return to nature, with a specific rejection of lifeshaping. I’d expect that lifeshaping is taboo among the savage halfings.

The ancient halfings would have had some nifty biotech, but we know that it is inherently hazardous.

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Not Dark Sun Dystopia enough. What if the present day Forest Ridge halflings were the rejects of Rhulisti society. Considered to be defective genetically, aka: you’re too disruptive, so it must be a gene thing, no one would ever be against our control otherwise.Exiled on coral barges and expected to die, but some found their way to isolated islands (the peaks of the Ringing Mountains). After the Nature Bender War, Brown Tide and Rebirth, those survivors came down on the side of the new forested slopes of the mountains and formed the current halfling tribes there.

Sorry @redking I’ve just realised that’s an Athasian version of Transportation. No offence intended!

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Just give the savage halflings an Irish accent and you’ll be all the way there :joy:

Another thing - if Rajaat is going to be used, and he is some sort of super-being like a pyreen, then it would be interesting if Rajaat was created by the dead-end faction of halflings as the solution to the degeneration of the halfing race.

In this scenario, the ancient have already posited the potential for the existence of arcane magic, but they themselves cannot bring arcane magic into being. You may ask “how could the ancient halflings know about magic when it doesn’t even exist”. It’s the same way as we know about scientific things, even though we don’t have the technology. We know about nanobots, but cannot produce them. We know about space travel, but cannot do it. We know about quantum states, but cannot use them. And so on.

So arcane magic would, at this point in Athasian history, be a hypothesis and the hypothetical counterpart to divine magic.

The halfing dead-enders create their ubermensch, the hyper-intelligent mutant Rajaat, to perform the task that they cannot do themselves. The rest is known to us. Rajaat performs his experiments with arcane magic and discovers that only drawing energy from plants is feasible for most arcane magic use cases.

Ironically, the dead-enders end up as the servants of their creation.

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I like that.

PS: I wouldn’t define Aussies as ‘savages’… :wink:

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I may have a whole tentative rhulisti worldbuilding/metaplot in my notes for Beyond the Dead Lands and other fanwork :smirk:

I interpret the Blue Age Lifeshapers as not necessarily straight up eugenicist totalitarians, more an authoritarian “pacifist” society with vaguely ecofascist tendencies, think a hippie cult gone bad on a societal level. As advanced as rhulisti “technology” was I wanted to keep an archaic/bronze age feel. The Nature Masters ruled through immense levels of gaslighting, social shaming, and doublespeak, disguising a horribly repressive and stagnant society under auspices of “natural order,” and while on the surface the society seemed pacifist and utopian, “do not kill” meant punishment took all different forms of “humane” alternatives, think like, speaking against a nature master has you “taught respect” by having some parasitic organism that prevents your from speaking for a certain time stuffed in your mouth, or your mouth closed shut by flesh, horrors like that. They certainly did kill people (via assassins with tons of hand-washing about how they never killed anyone, it was just the “cycle of life”) behind the scenes, but it was rare and “humane punishments” usually instilled enough fear to maintain social order. In terms of social norms, Rhulisti society was probably a wierd mix of archaic backwards and oddly modern- for example, if you were non gender conforming, you were told that altering your body was a perversion of the sacred rhulisti form, but grafts were fine, as those are “outside” the sacred body. Overall the Nature Masters were supremely racist, not even recognizing their own sapient “allies” such as the Whales and Dolphins as “people” but rather “good servants,” and Rhulisti “ecology” was tainted by the idea that their role in the biosphere was the “brain” with everything else existing to service them: the pinnacle of evolution and sacredness was the Rhulisti form.

Likewise their reliance on lifeshaping led to complete atrophy in many conventional aspects of technology, I envision the Rhulisti, before they developed lifeshaping, being more a neolithic/early copper age maritime society that relied on the ocean, and as a result they hadn’t developed complex metallurgy or sedentary agriculture- imagine if a neolithic society shot to 21st century levels of technology in a few generations, with no experience tempered by any hardships, really, and the absolute mess that would ensue. What were fishing guilds and maritime merchants clans skyrocketed to “biopunk” megacorporations in bed with the Lifeshapers, while the Nature Masters were equivalent to a deeply nepotistic and corrupt academic institution.

Initially the first Elemental Clerics, Druids, Psions, and what became the Life Benders emerged from that academic tradition, as new avenues of exploring the “essence of life” were pursued, and for a time there was a renaissance of magic-lifeshaping cooperation (my attempt to explain the more obviously magic elements of things like the PT and the lifeshaped artifacts in Psionic Artifacts of Athas) Eventually the people in charge perceived these new “sciences” as a threat to their power and repressed or drove them out, psions were hunted down and subjected to “therapy” (lifeshaped surgery to “fix” their brains), clerics and druids were denounced and their assets like the Proto-Pristine Tower seized, though they were prominent enough in Rhulisti society it eventually led to a very tenuous acceptance by the Nature Masters, which is why the Elemental Cults and Lifeshapers roughly get along even among the Rhul-Thaun. The Nature Benders started as the ancient version of Chahn, a sort of student protest movement among younger, more progressive Lifeshapers who wanted to reform their stagnant society and explore new avenues of research.

They didn’t start evil, decades of repression and moral shortcuts led them to become more and more violent and radical, and their individualist ideals slowly corrupted into a sort of genetic objectivism of viewing people as raw material for research and “art.” Their ideals and a shared enemy led a lot of Psions, Clerics, and Druids who had avoided the Master’s crackdowns to join them, and Rhulisti politics led a lot of nations that were not Tyr’Agi, as well as the more cuttthroat mercantile clans, to back them (or sometimes play both sides). The First of Wars was more an evil vs evil conflict, with both sides thinking they were in the right and turning to more desperate and depraved methods to win, and the Nature Masters, as they lost to the Benders, threw any of their supposed morals out the window and turned to torturing magic users and Benders for their secrets and turning to bioweapons much like their enemies were using. In the end the Masters won, and I like the question of whether the Brown Tide was a bioweapon (As Wisdom of Sorrow implies) or some sort of agricultural experiment gone awry (the more canon revised edition explanation), left deliberately vaguely - maybe it was both? Who knows. The Brown Tide is dead and gone and most certainly not a lingering threat down south… :smirk: In the end, the Nature Masters couldn’t stop the tide and turned to the elemental magic of their former enemies to save themselves, bringing Elemental Clerics in to use the PT to its full potential and burn the seas.
Some of the rebirth beings would be Nature Benders and their collaborators turned as “punishment” (as a nod to Wisdom of Sorrow, like the earliest Zik-Chil, maybe) while others were rebellious lower-ranking Masters who sought to make amends for their crimes. I have the notion the grudges of various groups carried on into the Rebirth- for example, the Tanysh humans are the descendants of a Bender-aligned branch of Clan Taene, who were the Tyrell Corp of the Blue Age, whose members were punished for their war profiteering and treachery by being turned into “freakish” humans. Their sense of broken entitlement and “betrayal” filtered into a human supremacist mindset. Likewise, the ancestors of the Remaan were a mixed group of rebels who seized the Pristine Tower and voluntary turned into rebirth races, and were joined by repentant Nature Masters- this group of interrelated families were tasked with watching over the first Pyreen and developed their trademark multicultural system.

Rhulisti society didn’t collapse overnight, many of the surviving enclaves were undersea cities beached by the receding oceans or left high on the islands that were now mountain ranges- some died off from political strife or the lifeshaped technologies they depended on failing, as they didn’t know how to hunt or farm. Others were destroyed by vengeful or desperate rebirth races and creatures mutated by the PT, and others experienced more peaceful transitions as they adopted new life-patterns and became “feral” halflings. A few cities like the Rhul-Thaun’s villages or Basrai up in the White Mountains survived for a very, very long time.

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All good thoughts/ideas (and I had similar thoughts about why the Whales ended up doing their own thing, not just the Brown Tide). Nice to see the Rhulisti were also exemplars of the dictum: No one is ever the villain of their own story. :wink:

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Great ideas on the Rhulisti. You mentioned a place called Basrai that I’ve never heard of. Where is that location talked about, is it part of cannon?

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