So if an official Dark Sun book comes out and retcons much of the rhulisti/revised DS lore can we agree that the new lore is correct?
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We can agree that if such a thing happens, its absolutely upto individual DMs/readers whether they accept or reject that retcon.
More to @Rajaat99âs specific point, if a new book that ISNâT Dark Sun (letâs say, a Ravenloft product) comes out with lore that contradicts current DS lore, I think its pretty safe to say most of us will ignore it (where it disagrees with DS).
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Yup, thatâs my point. When two sources conflict - the DM chooses which one they are using.
An official non-Dark Sun product that touches on the setting or official Dark Sun products - even if it was not added to canon - (Iâm looking at you Tribe of One/Chronicle of Athas series) are still valid for lore, even if contradictory. If you donât like (or accept) the most current Dark Sun lore from the 4E products that changes lore from past editions/products you could (and we do) simply refuse to use/accept it.
You can weigh the source material however you like, because getting consensus on lore from gamers is an exercise in futility.
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Back to the original topic: Iâm not sure if Green Age elves lived for centuries; I think the evidence is inconclusive. Dark Sun specific lore says that they are mutant halflings but that doesnât preclude a longer lifespan in the Green Age⌠nor does it necessitate it.
If I had to come down on a side, Iâd lean towards âThe elves of the green age were much the same as elves from other worlds. The Cleansing Wars, however, resulted in the current elven culture, and their physical changes (height, lifespan, etc.) come as a result of their intermingling with other races⌠humans, yes, but also others, some now lost, giving them their height and a degree of their stamina. Thus, a Tablelands âelfâ is regarded by the elves of Sylvandretta as being barely an elf at all, as they are a now-stable mixture of several different bloodlines.â
What went into making the modern elf? No way of knowing, and Athas is weird enough that it could be a lot of things. Maybe some of it is a half-elf partially changed into a Thrax (since thrax only pass on the curse to humans). Maybe a villichi bore a half-elf. Maybe gith, or any sort of thing that might have helped get elves a foot or two taller and able to make a semi-hive-mind and run for days.
It would result in the Tablelands elf being ensouled, insofar as it matters on Athas.
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As a side comment for trivia (not d&d definitions, fyi): the technical definition of a soul (as in the term âa living soulâ) is that of âbeing in a state where a spirit is joined to a matching bodyâ, in other words typical living creatures.
The technical definition of a spirit is that of âbeing in a state where the spirit does not have a correctly matching body, and is freely mobileâ.
And a ghost has a different technical definition yet again, depending on whether it is an echo, a reactive projection, or an actual entity of some category.
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I personally think the implied history of Athas changed during its publishing history. I do think in early products the implication was that it used to be a normal D&D world - the references to older gods and the temple under Tyr in The Verdant Passage, the mentions of castle ruins in Wandererâs Journal, etc. In that publishing era, I think the idea was that there were gods like any other world, back then.
The Green Age being a psionic-tech era is a late publishing era thing. The descriptions of ruins in Wandererâs Journal sound like medieval level cities, not the kind of thing Mind Lords of the Last Sea describes the Green Age being like.
I personally think the implication of early materials is likely that psionics is a more recent development, after Things Went Badly Wrong⌠basically the fantasy equivalent of mutation powers in Gamma World.
Of course, the revised box set history with the halflings being ancestral to everybody, life-shaping, magic being invented by Rajaat (both preserver and defiler magic), etc. doesnât allow for any of that. But I donât think any of that was invented early on. Things like Lalali-Puy keeping the language of her early court 10,000 years ago (in Veiled Alliance) are totally incompatible with the revised box set history (where the Champions/SKs are âonlyâ a little over 3500 years old).
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Itâs part of why I go with âThe history of Athas isnât written in stone.â
Rajaatâs champions believe that he created magic, and his plan seems to have been âgive the world back to its original halfling mastersâ, but it is entirely likely he is full of mekillot dung. I know itâs unthinkable that the genocidal immortal part-elemental creature stuck in a dimensional hole for thousands of years might have lied, but thereâs the possibility that itâs true.1
Instead, look at what exists in the present day, and make your own history. These are the races that are alive. Here are some that were apparently genocided in the past. These are probably true, since we have a few still-living people who can say âYes, I tried to kill all the trolls, at the behest of Rajaatâ. We donât have any reason to disbelieve them on this⌠but it might not be entirely true, either. We just know that there are no more trolls2, but there are certain kinds of people across the land, each of whom have their own history, and few of whose histories agree.
There are halflings on the Jagged Cliffs who have some sort of life-shaped devices, and who think they had more in the past⌠but theyâre also above a swamp that causes deformation, so who knows where the weird stuff comes from.
Was there ever a Green Age? Was there ever a Blue Age? People think so, but people believe all sorts of things that may or may not be based on fact, and even if theyâre based on fact, it may be distorted beyond belief; a common real-world parallel is the various flood narratives. Some people think those reference the ancient flooding of the Black Sea⌠which happened almost 7600 years ago. Also about 8000 years ago, according to the canon DS timeline? Rajaatâs invention of magic. Even with elves who live hundreds of years, thatâs plenty of time for things to fall into myth.
Once you go with âhistory is written by unreliable narratorsâ, you free things up a lot.
1 I know the later books are written from the POV that he is correct; but, TBH, we can easily ignore that.
2 Statistically, the one in Troll Grave doesnât count
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I largely agree with the âhistory is unreliableâ thing; but i think thereâs still one major sticking point, and thatâs the Sorcerer-Kings. Their being defilers of separate origins who independently achieved enormous power, accidentally got the power to grant templar spells from a living vortex they donât know about, and donât entirely understand its nature and implications (as written in Dragon Kings) is going to lead to very different interaction/behaviors than them all having common origin as Champions of Rajaat and all being on the same side of a 1500 year war (as in the revised box set history).
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Maybe. Because, while they may have diverged from a common point, they also started in different places, and then went their own way after a while, and have had thousands of years to do their own thing⌠they keep in touch, sure, but theyâre seldom-disputed masters of their own domains, able to use them as they wish, under whatever fiction they wish. Lalai-Puy and Tectuktitlay chose âGodâ; Kalak and Androponis chose âImmortal Tyrantâ. Abalach-Re chose âpoor little meow meowâ. They all spent thousands of years pursuing their own schemes, in their own empire.
While it hasnât been thousands of years, Iâve diverged significantly from my friends from college. If I were an immortal god-king trying to wrench more power out of the universe without going crazy? I might wind up a bit different than other immortal god-kings, who started in different places and were pursuing their own plans.
Thatâs a very good point. I was more thinking of the effect on the power dynamics betweeen SKs of the revised box set idea that all the SKs became rulers at roughly the same time (and have a relationship with the Dragon, and a common interest in keeping Rajaat contained) vs. the implication in early material that the SKs may have wildly different times of âascensionâ (Wandererâs Journal says that Andropinis became dictator 700 years ago and Kalak became king 1000 years ago ⌠and doesnât give dates for any others, possibly implying theyâre too ancient to be known ⌠whereas Veiled Alliance says Lalali-Puy has ruled for 10,000 years) and donât have a similar common interest.
In the revised model, they all are or at least at one time were peers.
Agreed entirely. My attraction to DS was the vision presented in DS1. I feel like somebody (maybe me) should write up a ârevisionist Athasian historyâ document based solely on DS1-era products and whatever degree of adjustment and speculation required.
My personal philosophy on the crazy Psionics of Brown Age Athas is that, given the Law of Conservation of Energy, the life energy destroyed in the act of defiling is in fact released (in a way preserving magic is not) in such a way that minds can access it. In other words, thereâs a massive amount more âpsionic energyâ on Athas in the Brown Age than there was in the Green.
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So, defiling enables psionics? Psychics are using the dissipated energy of defiled land?
Interesting; I donât think Iâd go with it, but itâs an interesting approach.
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Iâve done this on another forum (The Piazza). I wasnât entirely happy with the result though. Maybe I should post it here anywayâŚ
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That is an interesting thought. I could see how that could be made compatible with the âinternal origin of power sourceâ that psionics rules state. I side with @LibraryOgre in that it is also not what I would do, but nonetheless it is an interesting idea.
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Please do! Iâd love to see it! At minimum, it could serve as a base for my own version.
Sure, Iâll make a new thread for that.
And here it is: Alternate Athasian History (Non-canon, Very Long!)