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I had ideas for adapting a dark sun “fan novel” called “New Breed” that never took off from like 2004’s ideas for the southern continent, ie a relatively untouched, hostile continent inhabited by a mutant race with lifeshaping, called “Fyanralas” - I found it while perusing old Dark Sun geocities remnants on wayback machine and liked the concept. It might have been the user “Ral of Tyr’s” site?


"Across the Silt sea, beyond the valley of dust and fire lies the ancient continent once known as Fyanralas . This verdant subtropical land survived the ravages of the Cleansing Wars due solely to the presence of one of Athas most ancient and deadly races the Rux. The Rux are a race as old as the Blue Age halfling’s and very little was known about this mysterious race. That was until the Wanderer ventured there… I thought my life was due to end, and I would be drawn into the gray. It had been over a week since the skimmers food stores had been depleted and out of the twenty five crew which set sail from Balic only twelve were left. Daranga the water priest was the only person keeping the rest of us alive with her undying devotion to her sacred element. The expedition had been traveling east for two score days and the mindbenders were working day and night using their own power and the psionic energy stored in the crystals which stood round the floaters pit to keep the skimmer moving. Then the lookout screamed with joy, almost dropping his King’s eye overboard. Land had been spotted on the horizon. The closer the skimmer got to the mainland, I was surprised to see a dense tropical forest growing up the steep hill sides. The silt was also getting more shallow and with every yard and eventually turned to mud and to the crews delight shallow muddy green water with plant life abundantly growing and almost grasping out at the hull of the Winged lady as if to welcome us to this new land. "

Likewise for the other continent’s names I wanted to recycle really old info from super early drafts of Secrets of the Dead Lands, like going back to the original Denning Manuscript. The very basic idea for the Descendants of the Chosen at Nagarvos was there, but were like 4 feuding families from different parts of Athas, including polar regions. Less the idea itself and more those names for continents and regions.

(Very) Tentative concepts (mostly just “plot hooks”)

-Fyanralas is the continent south of Remaan, and was never colonized by them for good reason- the native Nikaal of the continent, around since the Blue Age, also mastered lifeshaping- while not as advanced as the rhulisti, they had less qualms aboit altering themselves and now call themselves Rux. Fyanralas is the most untouched, vibrant continent on athas, even bearing a thin ring of ocean around it- this is mostly because the Rux have slaughtered anyone, Blue, Green, or Brown Age, who so much as step on their shores

Pyatha and the islands of Messenia and Seren- following of one of brax and bell’s only mentions of these continents, the “central continent”, Pyatha, was pretty much unhabitable to the Rebirth races but home to sizable populations of Kreen, Rhulisti, and Nikaal- and many, many giant bugs. Most kreen civilzation is centered around the heavily alkaline central sea, while most of Nikaal civilization proper is on the western end facing Remaan. The Remaans failed to colonize Pyatha but “uplifted” the Nikaal via kobold, pterran, and lizardfolk emmisaries, and the Nikaal are organized in a series of pseudo-Remaan “republics”

-Grank (Based on ideas from Brian Sanchez) Athas’ north pole, hone to a massive ancient rhulisti experiment with the planes and the most advanced remnants of their civilization (basically the halfling New World Order hiding in a bunker in Greenland)

Yutcha- Athas’ south pole

Note this is going off the Bell/Brax concept that in addition to the Kreen the Nikaal were another race native to Athas before/along with the Rhulisti, but likewise only semi-sapient at the time.

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Interesting – has anyone thought about including Anadian halfling | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Fandom as another early halfling subrace on another continent of Athas? The xenophobia and slavery would seem to fit in with Dark Sun concepts – maybe they warred with the rhulistic faction?

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Going off some of Peter Nutall’s (Brax) more recent ideas in the DS facebook group, about a “Black Age” before the Blue Age, I think a cool concept to link into spelljammer is that the Rhulisti are Anadian Halflings, or rather that both groups are remnants of “space halflings,” with the Rhulisti being ancient exiles imprisoned or otherwise trapped on Athas, and that Lifeshaping’s similarities to say Illithid “biotechnology” is not just a coincidence- maybe the ancient “space halflngs” sided with Gith’s Rebellion and got their hands on the Illlthid Empire’s leftovers, which sparked a civil war and the exile of the proto-rhulisti. I could see interaction between these ancient Halflings, the Gith, the Jua and Kreen (whom themselves were “uplifted” by the Jua) - also, on the excellent fanmade flow chart of the Spelljammer lanes, Athas is actually within what was presumably “Juaspace” with Krynn being the closest main DS setting sphere. Going off some of jack’s ideas for incorporating the “Crimson Sphere” spelljammer tech continued in a localized form on Athas - probably the ancient basis of the Rhulisti airships and sea vessels and later Green Age psionic skyships, and modern psionic silt skimmers, but without spelljammer helms or a way to make them, they were regulated to being “earth-based.”
I had some ideas that the “Gate” idea of Brian Sanchez’s at the north pole is actually where the Rhulisti spelljammer “ark” ship crashed, and the Pristine Tower and other “towers” were part of Elemental Priests, Psionicists, ect trying to break through the Gray and “find their home”, which led to a ideological split with the Nature Masters and those groups being suppressed and eventually siding with the Nature Benders.The Messenger was the top nature masters running back to the same people they oppressed to save them, much like my metaplot in Beyond the Dead Lands, where the “Elemental Lords” of the south are actually the people who solved the Brown Tide by using the Pristine Tower’s true power- the mutations and rebirth are just the result of the Nature Master and Benders, who had no knowledge of its magical core functions (the Steeple of Crystals and its ability to alter the cosmological axes of Athas) mucking with the thing. Specifically, the now-dead Sun Lord, Dagia, was the person who designed the Steeple and “control crystal” (Dark Lens).

Ultimately, all of Athas’ disasters and suffering are the result of a bunch of asshole academics 14,000 years ago. The snowball that led to the First of Wars started with a student protest movement against the corrupt academic elite that were the Nature Masters, and ended up in tens or hundreds of thousands dead, the world ruined, and planting the seeds that the Green Age could never move on from thanks to the stifling stagnation enforced by the Pyreen, and one outcast Pyreen building a utopian image of the Blue Age in his head after finding ancient propaganda, and going on to destroy the world again. Not even the Pyreen’s fault really, they were groomed as guardians of the new age so it didn’t repeat the mistakes of the past, but had no real framework for how to do so beyond ancient half-remembered histories and creeds and were subconsciously biased to favor the “first 5” Remaan races, with the others often treated patronizingly.

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I like Athas’ position as the “Atheist” setting of the dnd worlds, one where there were no or very few cosmological forces like gods or primordials, or good/bad afterlife, where mortals had full run of their own fates, and promptly locked the world in an endless, dying cycle of suffering chained to the mistakes of the past. Rajaat and his fascist nightmare would have never risen if the founders Green Age had learned the actual right lessons from the Blue Age, and so on. Despite them being the “guardians” of the Green Age, the Pyreen failed hard, one of their own destroyed the world they cultivated. There’s an athasian timeline where Rajaat may have just been a Pyreen who was a bit physically warped but well-adjusted. Who’s to say his “ugliness” was not from the perspective of his race of shapeshifters? What if his “mutation” was just looking like a human?

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That’s super interesting – I doubt anyone else will much like these ideas, but I had some of my own homebrew Athas lore which also connected it to the old Alternity Star Drive lore. In this setting, there is a race of precursor aliens called ‘Stoneburners’ whose servants include psionic, post-human tentacled entities known as the i’krl. They are the ‘gods’ of an immense stellar theocracy, and the Stoneburner/tech races in general were bio-organic, and looked something like tyrannids or xenomorphs. I imagined that as the source of the lifeshaping abilities – including the kreen, which are similar to the klick, which are another I’krl Theocracy race.

I suppose it depends how much you want to lean into the planetary adventure/sci-fi aspect of the setting. I also thought the seshayans and reptilian t’ksa would be good Dark Sun races.

Here’s an interesting thread that connects them with the illithids and/or aboleth – I wonder if you could posit that both aboleth and illithids descended from some kind of tentacled psionic proto-species: AlternityRPG.Net Forum -> Stoneburners

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I like it, kind of touches on the ERB Barsoom elements of Dark Sun. With my take I’ve been trying to account for as much “canon” dnd cosmology as possible, but I think there should be always be an element of vagueness to leave things up to a dm for their own takes.

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I’m loving this.

When the time comes for us to update the Crimson Sphere crossover fanon, would you like to join the dev team on that?

sure, though I’m not really sure of the extent my ideas would be acceptable – I used a lot of the Alternity lore, with the idea that the I’krl Theocracy exists somewhere outside Athas and had visited the planet in the Blue Age. The Glassmakers – the ‘good’ precursors, would have been the origins of the nature masters and the Stoneburners the source of naturebending and similar arts. I also see a similarity between the Stoneburner tech and the ‘tenebrion seeds’ in Monte Cook’s arcana unearthed – the dragons (!!!) in that setting had mutagenic obsidian orbs that ‘advanced’ races in their own evolutionary chain

I think you kind of have to decide doing this prehistory stuff whether you’re leaning into the concept from the first boxed set, where I think most of the speculation was that the Green Age was more like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, or the second, where I think the planetary romance angle is more prominent, and it’s pretty clear the Green Age wasn’t medieval chivalric fantasy. I started with the revised boxed set, and I’ve always had the latter – the planetary romance angle – as my ‘default’ conception of what Dark Sun is as a setting. The Alternity stuff was released around the same time, so I was reading them together.

Another thing that I haven’t seen mentioned are the uber dopplegangers and the grey islands or whatever from that unreleased video game. Does anyone remember what I’m talking about? I feel like you could stick that in one of the oceans of silt and maybe portray the dopplegangers as some kind of degenerated pyreen subspecies.

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@darkinterloper and I have a Green Age book on the queue, so we’re way ahead of you.

One thing-- the last thing we want to do is make Green Age Dark Sun just like any other standard D&D world. Most of the team feel like that would take away from what makes the setting unique and special. So we’ve been taking pains to keep the danger and struggle in the setting even when reintroducing water and flora.

You’re right though that there is only so far we can go in the sci-fi direction before we start losing large chunks of the audience. I believe the compromise as it stands now is “post apocalyptic sword and sandals” being the acceptable middle ground between going too far into science fantasy on one end or curiosity-punishing grimdark on the other…

Moreover, it’s more about your ability to work within the scope of the project that matters most. If you can do that, you can still be helpful to the project.

But I definitely do like your doppelgangers idea. We’ll see what we can do.

Some other aesthetic touchstones I have in my mind when thinking about Dark Sun stuff are: Stargate/ancient aliens and the Mondoshawan culture in the 5th Element

I’ve long supported rhulisti unlocking life-shaping from illithid graft and symbiont tech.

I’ve toyed with the idea that early rhilisti were a slave race to the Illithid Empire much like the gith. Rather than being bred for battle like the gith, rhulisti were artisan slaves tasked with mass creating graft and symbiont items for the Empire. Instead of developing an innate resistance to psionic as the gith did, the rhulisti pushed the limits of illithid biotech to create life -shaping and used it to rebel and gain their freedom.

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I had some initial ideas- Athasian Dopplegangers not being a rebirth race but artificial, sterile constructs made using psionics/maybe remnants of lifeshaping knowledge the Pyreen had. Known officially as Rath-Nosh (Shape-Taker, basically “Form Stealer”) in Rhulisti, they were the Remaan Pyreen’s assassins and agents to maintain the order of the Green Age, but Rajaat went a long, long time before being targeted because the pacifistic Pyreen saw him as a “wayward child” and sort of coddled him even after he was long gone. They’d basically be the athasian version of greater dopplegangers, and the ones of the Gray Isles were one of several hit teams sent across the Age of Magic to kill Rajaat, the Champions, Preservers, basically anyone who knew arcane magic and wipe it from history, but went to ground among the Gray Isles- which I tentatively have as the islands in the Bay of Maray between Draj and Giustenal, which were at the time tropical vacation resorts for Giustenal’s elites, the “Green Isles.” (the islands mentioned by the guardian transit orb in City by the Silt Sea) they hid among the human survivors on the islands and, being thought/emotion-eaters, abandoned their mission and began feeding on humanoids.

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Given Shattered Lands is set in the area immediately around Draj I can’t imagine the Gray Isles would be too far, and the unnamed silt-island(s) to the south seem perfect.

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Personally, I would consider ancient halflings to be better “biological technology engineers” than illithids. As effect of situation, where world haven’t arcane magic and priest magic if very low developed. This also is the only point of glory and enlightened superiority of Athas over the rest of the multiverse; an effect where “these great things, life-shaping and advanced bioengineering, are the result of our genius; not stolen or inherid from others, but only our.” So, if I can please, please - nothing solutions by external powers.

Level of civilization in Athas now is similar like a in our deep antique. Sages in ancient Egypt hadn’t infos, what have place farrer that than current Iraq on east or Anatolia on north. Here had places spots, blobs of civilizations and a sea of barbarism. With other continents, I think, should similar work.

The most important point for Tablelands was cleansing wars, genocides, tyranny of SK’s and ecological crisis. Do Rajaat had contacts with persons from other continents? IMO extermination only in Tablelands and next planned betrayd by Rajaat, wouldn’t be sufficient to realization “return to glourious ancient”. So maybe Rajaat should have other collaborators in other continents, with similar goal but realized by other way? Not by wars, but eg. by virus and wrong medicine, with (anti)support of magic? Or magic have lead to realization of malthusian disaster and great famine have break civilization, leading to great tribes of cannibals? Too gigantic birth rate, as result experiments with magic (maybe any species have unstoppable budding?). Even points ruled by other collaborators of Rajaat have to use strange methods to control population, because this is only method to survive civilization (and personal growing of collaborators).

I’m not good writer in english. I’m very sad by this, but I can throw some ideas, gove some comments. Maybe some will be usable :slight_smile:

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Mmm them being allied with the Gith makes sense as Athas has an extremely old Gtihyanki outpost. My take would be that Yathazor is actually pre-gith civil war and the garrison were “loyalists” of Gith who became Githyanki, and hence were “psionic-nuked” by the Githzerai. Given Athas may be close to Juaspace it might have been a spelljammer lane “border outpost” to detect and destroy remnants of the Illithid Empire trying to hide in the dark corners of the phlogiston.

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One thing to note is that, in some ways, the Cleansing Wars were a gigantic scam- if you think about it the whole thing is an extremely inefficient and wasteful campaign run by a bunch of incompetent rabble-rousers: if he really wanted a straight up efficient extermination, Rajaat could probably personally kill everyone on Athas, he’s ludicrously powerful as an Arcane spellcaster. It can partially be chalked up to inconsistency and bad writing, but Lynn Abbey started the ball rolling on the notion that the Cleansing Wars were more a sadistic bleeding to death of humanity, and most 3E stuff on Athas.org has gone with that notion. Rajaat didn’t select efficient killers as his champions, he picked people good at driving nations into the ground and whipping up a racist mob, turned them into immortal, insane murder-drug addicts, and ran campaigns that were as drawn out and bloody as possible to kill as many humans as the people they were Cleansing, both to weaken eventual human opposition when he decided to wipe them out too, and probably just out of spite. Humans were just a blunt instrument, the race numerous enough, most prone to ambition and shortsightedness, and good at defiling to blindly march themselves into extinction. Rajaat wants the Blue Age to return, ie the Age of Halflings, and believes all “mutants” -including humans, must be eradicated.

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I’m a proponent in keeping the Cleansing Wars largely localized to the Tablelands- they were not the most developed or populous part of Athas, but they had great symbolic value- they’re where the Pristine Tower is, the Rebirth occurred and the spiritual “homeland” of all the Rebirth Races. In 3e Athas.org lore/“Brax” lore the area was densely populated by racist-inclined humans (probably the largest concentration of humans on Athas, Remaan was more evenly distributed) due to the human-supremacist Tanysh Empire ruling over it for a long period, and in many ways was the perfect kindling ground for Rajaat’s propaganda. It certainly spilled over into other parts of the world, but most of it was sparsely settled due to the lingering effects of the Brown Tide- the continents besides the one the Tablelands is one and Remaan were harsh and more fit for Kreen, Nikaal, and wierder things, or just desert due to the Brown Tide’s devastation.

Remaan was an example of Rajaat’s actual direct, brutal intervention- in destroying it he probably killed half the population of the planet by detonating the supervolcanoes under the continent- by proxy it took out half the globe, including the areas covered by Brian Sanchez’s “cauldron” and the “Sundra Peninsula” and wreathed that entire side of the planet in perpetual ash storms, tsunamis, earthquakes ect- the “cauldron” was a secondary eruption that wiped out most of the eastern Anattan continent. Rajaat was probably, between the “nuclear winter” on one side of the world, and the remaining inhabitable areas being devastated by war and defiling, anybody the champions didn’t kill would die of famine. Once all non-halflings were dead he would presumably use his magic to repair the damage and bring about paradise.

Destroying Remaan was a necessity- it was the biggest direct threat and, in terms of military power, if awoken from its stagnancy could have probably defeated the Cleansing Armies- Rajaat refrained from destroying it early on because he still had lingering affection for his own Pyreen race- by destroying Remaan he killed the vast majority of all Pyreen in a moment, with the ones in the Tablelands being the sort of fringe-folk with wierd, radical ideas (including himself)