And the best epic setting. Seriously, epic transformations, 10th level spells, high level characters not showing up EVERYWHERE like in FR…I love Athas’s epic systems so much from both a mechanical and world building perspective.
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When you get to epic levels on Athas, you are a mover and shaker. Ironically, I think the best kind of Athasian campaign is probably before the assassination of King Kalak. Instead of Rikus, Agis, Neeva, etc, make them bit NPCs with the PCs in the driver’s seat. Just as the PCs become epic, BOOM, they assassinate Kalak. Of course, now they have a city to take care of. The treasury is empty (and possibly the pittance that remained looted after Kalak was killed). If the PCs freed the slaves, they have upended the social system of Tyr. If they didn’t free the slaves, they face a slave revolt. They need to restart the iron mines, which is dangerous work best suited for slaves. Do the PCs engage in lustration, that is de-templarization of the government? Is Sacha and Wyan still around? Are they capable of granting spells to templars? If so, bullying them into doing so might make the PCs that control them strong enough to run the city. But what will they demand in return? Etc etc.
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This. Athas has a lot of social struggles and world altering kingdom building at the highest levels. ironically, this makes it surprisingly like how 2e was designed for PC retirement, only at level 21 rather than 9. This does limit the game in some ways that can be annoying. My one epic dark sun game actually became a plane hopping game thanks to the planar gate, and ended up in Faerun more than once. It’s fascinating to see how incredibly powerful individuals from different worlds interact, and how beings that are used to being many of the strongest people around find themselves suddenly facing the knowledge that Athas is one small corner of the multiverse, and conversely, that beings from such a small, hidden world can gain such incredible power.
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‘Heroic’ plotline for plane hopping Athasian PCs. The Shadow King is able to translate a small number of individuals to a world called Toril. The Shadow King has identified an individual there called Elminster that has contained within his body the essence of magic. You mission, should you choose to accept it, is to capture Elminster and return with him to Nibenay. Thereafter the Shadow King will rip the essence of magic out of Elminster and allow the weave of magic to spread all over Athas, ending the problem of defiling forever, and setting Athas back on the track to mend its ecology.
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Lol! My Pc’s were anything but heroic. I mean, one of them was an Athasian Dragon. The most positive alignment in party belonged to a mind-controlled intelligent psionic staff that could turn into a gigantic sand serpent and was taken off the corpse of a Pyreen. I believe it had the only good alignment in the party, and wasn’t even a true member. Despite that, it was listened too amazingly often, and probably the only thing that kept the party alive several times (mostly due to pointing out that murderhoboing tends to get you killed when you are no longer the biggest people around, but also because it could heal people.)
That is a really neat plot line, however. My group would have probably just fought over the Silver Fire instead of using it to help Athas though.
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After the events of the Pentad, Nibenay has chosen to take a more active role in his city per Wanderer’s Chronicle. Prior to that, I agree. He was very hands off with the day-to-day stuff.
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This awesome thread has been resurrected several times, so I hope you’ll forgive me if I do it again. A lot of things I wanted to ask about have been touched here, so I thought it’d be better to give this thread an Animate Dead rather than starting a new one.
I’ve been trying to find some information that’d help me flesh out Yaramuke and Sielba. I know actual lore is pretty scarce, so I think this is a perfect place to ask. All materials I can find say more about sacking of the city than the city itself. If you were to speculate, what else could we say about her? What was her government style? What was Yaramuke like in term of culture and lifestyle? Please feel free to speculate - or to point me to actual materials if you know any!
I think we’re over-estimating the SM’s cunning while downplaying the importance of obsidian. It’s the second best weapon material; on top of that, it’s much simpler to work with than metal. Whoever controls it, controls the warfare in the region. That makes the quarries an extremely strategic resource.
To make matters worse, one of the sides is Hamanu, the self-styled warrior SM. Sielba challenged not only his power, but the legend he built to legitimise his rule. If she took control of the quarries, he’d become a toothless warrior-king who can’t even arm his armies. To Hamanu, this was personal.
Finally, we don’t know how long this conflict lasted. When I first read it, I imagined it spanned centuries. That’s a lot of time to grow to hate someone who’s basically challenging your right to rule.
As for how Yaramuke was destroyed, I support the simplest theory: Sielba overcommitted and suffered a decisive defeat, leaving the city-state unprotected. Hamanu sacked it simply because of his (self) image. He’s the warrior-king. That’s what warrior-kings do.
Again, I have to play a devil’s advocate. The City-States are desperate places drifting from one crisis to another. If it’s not draught, it’s a natural disaster; if it’s not a disaster, a neighbour is invading because they suffered a draught and/or a disaster. The true test of an Athas ruler is their ability to confront these sudden crises, not intelligence or skill in intrigue. Planning ahead is worthless when a sudden drought ruins all your plans.
This is why I consider Abalach-Re a blatantly incompetent SM: Because she has to resolve to so much scheming and intrigue. Her authority is low; the morale in her city is rock-bottom at all times. That makes Raam weak at its core. In face of a crisis, it’ll be rife with unsolved problems that undermine its strength.
In this context, Lalali-Puy actually becomes one of the most competent SMs ever. You simply can’t underestimate the importance of high morale and public trust at times of crisis.
This is true for every single City-State. They exist because they happen to be in fertile regions. If not for geographical bounty, they’d never be built. Every SM’s rule lives and dies by the fertility of the land - which is why all of them make defiler persecution a rule.
Sorry, but this is simply not true. No SM (save Oronis) can ensure the fertility of their lands or save their city if it becomes defiled. However:
This would be a fair point, if not for one thing: She runs her city as a quasi-druidic environmental cult. Lalali-Puy’s entire government is an extensive ecologic program. Glug doesn’t ‘happen’ to have a geographic bounty - it has a queen who ensures her city has a geographic bounty.
Aside (perhaps) from Oronis, you don’t get an SM with more foresight. Her policies revolve around keeping her population fed, rich in base resources and capable of surviving in the long term. If it means sacrificing what other SMs consider ‘power’, so be it.
Fully agreed that she’s delusional and her policing is chaotic at best. However, her long-term government style leaves her people stronger, fitter and more likely to survive - perhaps to the point where she can afford whimsical leadership.
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There are no materials describing Yaramuke to my knowledge. The government type was likely Oriental Despotism.
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I would say that the use of trees of life, brambleweed and other defiler fuel, that all SM’s preserve their land to a certain extent… not just in Gulg. Otherwise, I agree.
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In my world, Yaramuke was a large walled circular city. What we see in Black Flames is the inner city, while the outer city contains many circular buildings similar to the tulou, each ruled by templar. Sielba and many of her templars were thrallherds and the outer city was off limits to outsiders much like Gulg. Outsiders had a separate foreigner tulou that allowed merchants and visitors. Each internal tulou was dedicated to a craft or profession, similar to how Eldaarich has it’s villages set up. External villages were also similar to tulou but were primarily farmers.
Culturally most templars were soldiers, since few were needed as police or run the city. People were happy to serve and were very communal. Property was all owned by Sielba, distributed by templars, and replaced as necessary. Outsiders were distrusted since they did not have the good of Sielba and Yaramuke as their primary motivation.
Yaramuke’s downfall was actually due to the schemes of Abalach-Re, she convinced some of the war templars to move on the mines at “Sielba’s” direction for the good of the city. Abalach-Re’s motivation was actually due to Sielba’s relationship with Dregoth nearly 200 years prior (she can hold a grudge and Sielba was more difficult to get to than Dregoth).
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In my campaign Sielba has been restored to life. She was never technically dead Hamanu simply seperated her soul from her body leaving her helpless. Now that she’s back I describe her as the wandering Porcelain Lady. She wears the attire of a Geisha with perfectly coifed black hair and stunning Porcelain skin. Although for battle she prefers to wear red tresses for the blood she’s about to spill. I based Yaramuke off of japanese buildings if those buildings had stone instead of wood as the building material. In my campaign Sielba was the one who poisoned the waters to prevent Hamanu from claiming her city as a second base. Now that she’s been resurrected she’s undone the curse upon the waters and during a large conflict she orchestrated she freed the descendants of her city who were mostly slaves in Urik. The “purebred” Mukians will form the backbone of her restored city with everyone else as a second class citizen.
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Thank you for your replies, everyone!
Hm, I didn’t know that theory before, but… Isn’t every City-State an Oriental Despotism? The key characteristic is a tyrant who controls access to water. I think that describes every SM, no matter their inspiration.
Or, do you mean it’s an Asian-themed City-State? That could be pretty interesting. Sielba ruling by a ‘mandate of heavens’? A collective society with strong family hierarchies and filial piety? That’d be something to work with.
This is a very interesting idea, with chilling implications for the PCs. Any capable individual risks being stripped of their will?
I also like how it ties to what little I know of Sielba’s personality. It’d be interesting if she craved genuine mortal adoration, yet was doomed to only ever receive mind-slaves (thrallherds can’t even take Leadership feat). That’d create a deliciously deluded - and tormented - individual… Though it might be my inner Ravenloft fan speaking.
This, again, would work great with her vanity. I can see her deluding herself (and, possibly, her subjects) that she is ‘generous’ - she provides for others with bounties taken from her personal resource pool. Also, her Templars would get some extra Secular Authority. ‘Reclaiming’ property needs to be a new application.
@Kalakoftyr This is great, thank you. Porcelain skin would make her look otherwordly on a sun-baked world like Athas. Speaking of Japanese themes, I thought of a ‘social debt’ concept - every act, good or ill, needs to be repaid.That’d give Sielba a very strong power base, since every person in the city technically owes her their lives.
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That social debt is based off of the eastern idea of Face I assume? I have a nearly identical idea for the culture of the reborn Yaramuke. Where every slight is remembered and every kindness must receive an honourable reciprocation. Of course this only truly applies to the ethnic Mukians. The other citizens are second class. Farmers and labourers while the true Mukians are the Knights ( based on samurai) wearing lacquered wooden armour. And other branches of nobility.
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It is connected to the face, but was actually a Japanese-specific phenomenon. I think it’s best described as a social ‘credit ability’. Just as you said, every deed - good or bad - has to be repaid in kind. If you can’t (or worse, won’t) reciprocate it, everyone will think you’re unreliable. Why would they deal with you if they can’t trust your word?
This system is based on shame and social ostracism, so it can go against your actual feelings. You might hate the person you’re indebted to, but you still have to pay them back. You might not want to exact vengeance, but you’re obliged to. A lot of old Japanese dramas were based around this sort of conflict.
This creates something of an intricate web of favours and grudges. Of course, it’s also an amazing tool of control. Everyone venerated the Emperor because every person in Japan owed him; similarly, the samurai all owed their entire livelihood to their masters. Peasants owed their land to the nobles, etc. Doing someone a favour automatically makes them indebted to you - which opened a whole new stage for intrigue. Helping someone in their time of need was a great way of manipulating them to do your bidding. In particular, if they save your life, you owe them your life. Most importantly, your debts extend onto your relatives. If you can’t pay them off, they will have to.
I think this would work great in Dark Sun, where resources are so scarce. Sielba could control the whole population by making them ‘owe’ her; the freemen ‘owe’ the nobles for providing them with work. Not to mention the Templars, who could literally generate ‘social debts’ at will. Every time they do you a favour, you owe them; even if they accept a bribe, they do you a favour by accepting it.
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I suppose the next logical step is to ask if Sielba herself believes in this concept of social currency? We know she would absolutely use it to her advantage. As the owner of all the fertile lands and water supply everyone in her city relies on her and therefore is indebted to her however would she feel.the need to repay those who perform a boon for her? In my campaign the porcelain lady is extremely lawful with her evil and as such would feel the need to obey her own laws so long as they don’t cost her too much. It might be different how you imagine her.
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In mine, she rewarded those who assisted in freeing her and her sister. She’s always done as promised to the best of her ability even honoring the bargains made by new templars to secure new people for her city. She’s very careful about what she promises and is clear about the authority her followers actually have. I think that concept fits perfectly with mine at least.
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In mine she comes across as a strikingly beautiful creature that triggers some strange fight or flight response in those around her. Like she has a predatory aura that others can sense. She says very little but what she does say is always to the point and efficient. Since she’s in the process of revitalizing her city she’s fairly hands on and deals with a lot of issues personally. I assume given time that will change.
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I don’t know, but I’m certain she ascribes to it. It puts her at an unbelievable advantage. Every single person in the city is inherently indebted to her; this means she can never be indebted to them. When they do her a favour - or when she demands a favour - they simply repay a part of their debt. She would bestow favours or rewards for exceptional services, naturally. I’m pretty sure she would play an ‘honourable’ queen for her subjects.
Of course, this would heavily colour her ‘international’ relations. Her subjects would expect her to honour her debts towards other SMs… Unless she constructed some sort of narrative in which she’s the supreme SM on Athas. It’d give her a powerful propaganda tube. Every demand is justified; any SM who stands up to her is a dishonourable ingrate. Every war is vengeance or exacting due payment.
As for whether she believes in it - that depends on her personality. I like the idea that she actually does, since it would make her delightfully deluded and hypocritical. However, as you said, it’d also make her very lawful in her evil. She’d be the sort of person who believes herself to be strictly honourable and fair… And never admits it’s only because she’s essentially above that law.
Of course, I can also see her cynically exploiting the debt culture. Both ideas have their advantage, but I feel making her believe in it makes her a more interesting character.
This very much. I think this would be ingrained in the Yaramuke culture, actually: Everyone is very careful what they promise (because failing to fulfil a promise puts you at debt). Sielba would put it to the very extremes… Which could create an image that she’s fickle and capricious. At least, to those who don’t understand the Yaramuke culture.
This is also great, especially to the outsiders. Characters with good sense motive would feel like she’s trying to ensnare them in something… But unless they understand Yaramuke culture, they can’t put their fingers into it.
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For people who’ve brought Sielba back, when did she re-found Yaramuke? Did the events of the Prism Pentad play out as written? And did she restore Yaramuke to it’s original site or move elsewhere?
Only asking as I’m trying to see how that would work on a geopolitical level and how the return of Yaramuke and its SQ would impact the Road of Kings.
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Long time since i visited my thred.
Happy to see ts still living. 
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