Agreed about the move. Is there a way to move posts, or do we just start a new thread? @raddu ?
Btw, i think becoming a T’liz should move your character to forced NPC status, to keep it from being a kind of reward.
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T’liz characters become NPC’s as per the Dragon article, and I agree.
I also agree it’s time to close this and start a new thread.
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Okay, here I am ranting on again, but here me out:
Stop the magic! Just say NO. And say D.A.M as well (DMs Against Magic). And you can be M.A.D.D. too (Magic Absent D&D)! (Old school reference, intended to be humorous.)
Okay, now that is out of my system for a few seconds, on to the more helpful suggestions:
If one is going to have alternate energy sources, make them all psionically accessed and psionic in nature.
Thus they all become psionic locations, touchstones, and psionic type power sources. They can still have side effects, but by making them come under the psionic system, it resolves the whole defiler/preserver dichotomy and keeps the uniqueness of that system.
Psionics already has Stygian powers, with a slight expansion, it could easily cover both the Black and the Grey.
Possibly replace the Sardior powers with Cerulean ones, and that might be the start of a workable chassis.
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How about no?
Some of us aren’t as gung ho on a fully psionic based Athas as you seem to be. Personally I like to see contention and competition between the two classes/systems. But at least in 2E, psionics was broken and needed a lot of work. Show me something balanced and I might change my mind, but until then? Magic should be an inclusion in Dark Sun as far as the general setting is concerned. What you do in your own game is your own thing.
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I just go on rants because everyone keeps adding magic options to a world that is supposed to hate and fear magic.
You may have noticed that I advocated keeping both preservers and defilers intact and unique in my post.
While I could easily make a fully psionic Athas, I like to keep an 80/20 balance between psionics and magic, plus I use the Are Different rules, so that magic is not easily defended against and really deserves the hate and fear reputation.
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@nijineko makes fair points about how psionics should be supreme on Athas; its 1000’s of years older than arcane magic, everyone can use it (even the plants), and its not illegal.
But, this is DnD, and psionics is a stapled-on extra at the best of times. Its always going to suffer from being weird and new and well all just have to deal with the conundrum of how many wizards there are in the Tablelands vs how many show up at our gaming tables.
Honestly, they’re basically our Drizzt Do’Urdens - there shouldn’t be that many, but they’re fun to play.
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A Dark Sun DM would be well within his rights to make arcane casters an NPC only matter for Dark Sun campaigns. The RP opportunities for “us vs them” vis a vis arcane casters are very good. Ideally, you don’t want the PCs invested in arcane magic by having one or more of the PCs being arcane casters.
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In line with that concept, every templar spell list should be based on which sorcerer king they are connected to. And massive chunks of the spell list should be flatly made illegal / lost.
A lot of the problem with magic in Dark Sun is that players seem to use the PHB and or Spell Compendium as something that all characters have access to, and DMs do not seem to stop it. (I am sure there are exceptions in this community. )
It is doubtful that the big R taught the entire PHB to his Champions, and even less likely that the later sorcerer kings would teach their templars even a fraction of what they know.
Ruins should be mostly psionic or lifeshaping, and thus discovered artifacts should be in that category, not magic.
The only sources of magic should be ancient battlefields where genocides took place, places where the champions stayed long enough, or caches that the big R left behind for some reason, possibly his hidden research labs or something. Plus the living SKs, and Templars.
It just doesn’t make sense, the sheer amount of magic that is described in the rpg… the novels are focused on that as a story and plot point, so of course it’s going to show up a lot there… but the books probably covered 70% of the living spellcasters left in the entire world! (Or at least that chunk of the world. )
But unless there is a compelling, and I mean really compelling reason, all the rest of the world should basically be psionic and lifeshaping remains and survivors.
Oh, one must account for the connections Athas used to have with the Outer Planes, so that might be a major source of magic knowledge (wasn’t the outer planes monopolized by the big R? After the severing? )
Soooooooo, I just get frustrated, and occasionally ticked, at every new discussion seemingly being “OH, NEW MAGIC IDEA, CHECK IT OUT”… Intellectually, I realize that most people like magic, and magic IS part of Dark Sun, but my emotions don’t always listen.
Having said all that, I feel I should offer apologies if any of my statements have stepped over the line or offended anyone.
Thus, my sincere apologies are offered to all who wish them.
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I think everyone’s aware of arcane magic being your pet peeve. 
Rants aside, you’re not wrong, IMO. Its just not important enough to me for me to runs games differently. 
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Check that, on further thought, i completey disagree.
Rajaat spent centuries training Wizards, then trained at least a dozen of the most powerful Wizard/Psions to walk the continent (if not planet). Those Wizards (the Champions) then proceeded to train ARMIES of Wizards and warriors to scour the world of Druids, preserver Wizards, and finally the non-human (non-Halfling) intelligent races in a series of wars that took MILLENNIA.
They didn’t manage to get all the Dwarves or Elves, so it stands to reason some human preservers got away as well and went to ground. Surely many defilers went AWOL. Every ruin should have arcane paraphernalia or magic items. The SK’s still train defilers.
Arcane magic should abound, hidden everywhere.
But there should still be a 10:1 ratio of Psions to Wizards.
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In 2E the Templars were clerics. The Templars were even better clerics than regular Dark Sun elemental Clerics due to major access to the sphere of Cosmos. The DS fluff about Templars is clear that Templar magic is different to arcane magic, and the Sorcerer Monarchs are not teaching their Templars anything, only turning on the divine magical spigot.
In terms of 3.5e, you shouldn’t even have this complaint. Templars cast from a fixed spell list and have domains. The domains differ between the Sorcerer Monarchs, so there is a slight difference between the Templars. My own version of Templar bring the Templar fully in line with the design philosophy behind Warmage and Dread Necromancer.
Templars are a cool and integral part of Athas. The game designers here at Athas dot org paired them down a little from their 2E cleric roots, and as much as I have disagreed in the past with some of their decisions, the direction that they took Templars in was good. I don’t see your complaint in relation to Templars holding water at all.
I don’t think that canon Athas presents as rife with arcane magic as you suggest. Yes there are many character options for arcane magic, including the special energy sources that has been discussed here recently. The solution isn’t a change in the canon, but at the table. I know that I would not allow an arcane spellcasting PC to preserve the mystery of magic in the setting. I’m sure you have your own solutions.
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As it happens, MAGIC is my biggest pet peeve in DS. Way more attention in the setting books should be paid to calling out Arcane vs. Divine magic.
If the general populace lynches arcanists and reveres the elements, then they should be able to conversationally distinguish between divine and arcane magic. I wish the writers did a better job of it.
As good a job as they did other places, saying things similar to: “Those who use magic in public will face an angry mob; an elemental cleric and their healing are alway welcome in a village” is ridiculous.
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And we are told that wizards often pretend to be psions. Why not put on a clerical robe and pretend to be a cleric?
Right. Although, I’m not sure rhe Templars/SM’s are big fans of the clerics - probably wouldn’t keep you off the slave farm.
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Clerics operate in the city states legally by canon. I think that the risk of impersonating a cleric is likely the risk of being exposed by clerics.
Wouldn’t it depend on the city state?
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The clerics operate legally in the known city states. Given that its not organized religion (at least not as we conceive it), it doesn’t represent a threat. Clerics can even be useful to the Sorcerer Monarchs.
I find it completely logical to find a multitude of “special” types of magic. They shouldn’t be visible to the population, but it’s a way to practice your art in a world where it’s shunt and hidden. When someone cannot acquire something, he finds a way to get around the interdiction by creating something new and often unexpected in order to do what he wishes.
It’s pointless, let’s say in FR, to find new ways to summon energy for casting, since nothing is forbidden.
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Hey @raddu. This is the discussion I think should be closed.
The original purpose of this discussion was left behind in the dust a year and a half ago, and there are newer threads more accurately labelled to match what we’re talking about here.
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