Sorry. I couldn’t hear you over the sound of your own jealousy. 
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Too soon, Redking. Too soon…
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Even if I like your avangion idea, I’m reluctant to make necromancy available lo living beings. Even more than that, I would only allow it to work on places where the barrier with the Gray is really thin: the Dead Lands, Giustenal, the Black Sands area, etc.
But hey, if you run it, I would definitely want to know how it goes! 
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You don’t like 'em? I hate 'em. The entire premise of the setting was overthrown. I wrote about it here.
I hear you. Which is why I’m leaning towards the “draining the spirit world” explanation as a way to reconcile the concepts. And of course this should come with consequences.
As @Otello said, maybe they have to use it where the barrier to the Grey is thin, otherwise they have to weaken the barrier to make spells work (the stronger the spell the greater the damage), and this carries its own side-effects.
Maybe there is damage to “the soul of the land” and the spirits, turning them violent and less cooperative for Druidic magic, or eventually more liable to be hostile to living beings there.
I’m open to ideas. Any ideas what those consequences should be for living necromants (or even dead necromants)?
In 2e, there was a Con check or else take 1d2 dmg…
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The way I see it, if alternate energy sources exist, they should have a cost or effect that is at least as bad as defiling in its own way. That’s why I lean towards using necromancy causing the area to become an undead infested nightmare as the cycle of life and death frays at the edges. That being said, the idea that necromancy requires the user to be undead is a neat idea. Perhaps living users of necromancy slowly turn into a type of undead themselves, albeit one that’s inferior to kaisharga and the like. Otherwise there’s not much incentive to purposefully become a kaisharga.
As for using the Black as an energy source, I liked the notion that it outright warps your body slowly over time until you become one of the horrors of the Black. The more you use the Black, the more it uses you and all that. This makes it very clear that both paths to power are hardly ideal, one causing at least as much harm as defiling, the other slowly consuming you from within. This keeps the tone of the setting intact while also showing other attempts at refining sorcery and the horrors they unleashed in doing so.
As for the Cerulean Storm, I always thought it was dumb and undermined the setting. But if you can make it work, more power to you.
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I suggested an alternative source compromise in the other thread. In essence, the alternative sources of energy can only power magic closely related to the energy source, not other types of magic.
Perhaps we can reach a compromise on these alternative power sources. Lets do it logically.
Necromant: A necromant draws power from the Gray, but only for spells from the necromancy school. For spells not of the necromancy school, the necromant must choose to be a defiler or preserver.
Cerulean: A cerulean can choose to cast an evocation spell as a spell with the electricity descriptor, instead its normal descriptor. For example, a cerulean could cast an electrical fireball. If the cerulean does this, then it draws its power from the Cerulean Storm instead of plants. For spells not of the evocation school cast with the electricity descriptor or spells of other schools, the cerulean must choose to be a defiler or preserver.
Shadow Wizard A shadow wizard draws power from the Black, but only for spells from the illusion school. For spells not of the illusion school, the shadow wizard must choose to be a defiler or preserver.
I hear you, and it’s not necessarily a bad solution, but this necromancy only greycasting rule for necromants straight up won’t work in the dead lands for a lot of reasons. (Not least because several canon things couldn’t have happened with it).
I think the magic having a price or requirements has to be the way to go.
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Arcane power sources need personal or ecological drawbacks to fit the tropes of DS, or else nobody would be a Defiler and a pillar of the setting would be gone.
The 3e implementation needs a tweak is all. The extra power sources are here, we need to deal with that.
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I think personal consequences are fine, just as long as the costs of arcane spellcasting are also externalized. That means that other people must suffer directly, or indirectly via environmental destruction (“you destroyed my crop!”)
If the harm is strictly personal, which is what most people are proposing for these alternative sources of arcane, then there is no reason for people to be angry about it besides a misunderstanding about how arcane magic works. Also, in the personal consequences only scenario, preservers do not have moral standing to lecture anyone about ethical use of magic, because preservers are more part of the problem than the alternative source users (in this scenario).
Now on to slaying the ‘special energy sources’ sacred cow. The special energy sources of cerulean, the black, and the gray appear in one Dark Sun supplement only. That supplement is Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas by Nicky Rea, published at the end of the Dark Sun line in July 1996, and edited by Bill Slavicsek. This was the second last publication for Dark Sun in 2E.
Not a single NPC is presented as using these special energy sources. Nor does Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas explore the implications of these special energy sources on the actual defilers and preservers that exist on Athas, instead just sidestepping the issue and simply ignoring it.
For a product that came so late in the product cycle and at a time when TSR was having a severe internal crisis which would soon result in TSR going broke, Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas gets a lot more deference than it deserves. Speaking frankly, it is one of the worst products in the Dark Sun product line.
Do you see any special energy sources in 4E? No? Why not? The answer is overturning the entire dichotomy of preserving vs defiling on Athas is an unmitigated disaster for the setting and the 4E designers refused to make the same mistake.
Since it appears in but a single product, I am personally happy to ignore it. Alternatively, if these special energy sources must be used for some reason, they are just defiling in a different way. Gray casting brings death to the surroundings. Cerulean casting creates a static charge that damages plants and small animals. Black casting puts a toxic coating on the surrounds. Its all bad and preservers still maintain their privileged place.
I’d say that free willed undead would be offended by the concept of the living tapping into the Grey. Could be played out that they would target the living necromant above others.
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It contradicts the Necromant’s prestige class advantage set a bit, but it’s not a bad idea.
We could flip it over, and say that living things with ties to the earth instantly are hostile to grey casters…
@redking - I hear what you’re saying about environmental effects. For the Grey, the question then does become what happens when it is being depleted? Does it damage people’s souls? Does it hurt the ability of new souls to form in an area, such as people’s or animals’ abilities to have children? (that’s possibly too brutal, but it would be an example)…
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If Necromancers are taking damage to cast their spells, there’s no need for Preservers to get on their soapbox.
I don’t think a Shadow Wizard being “creepy” is a satisfactory negative; maybe accidentally summoning Shadow-monsters on the side that attack the Wizard and/or everyone else would be good, or some chace to get sucked to Hell (I mean, the Black)…
But yes, alternative-Defiling. Defiling of souls or weather or thr barrier between Athas and the Black or whatever…
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There are a lot of mutated humans on Athas. Take a look at the DS art. Perhaps Gray casting is responsible for birth defects.
Well, the obsidian tower definitely was.
But Graycasting would work as the plot hole filler for that nicely. That would get a LOT of people angry…
I’m not sold on the idea of Greycasters taking direct damage. But definitely moving them towards evil and undeath is an alternative. (Anyone here remember the hilariously named “Defiler’s Taint” rules?)
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I’m not super pro Graycaster being drawn to evil and undeath necessarily, I feel like that somehow leeches away some of the humanity of the character (literally, i suppose).
Defilers defile because they don’t care (about the environment more than their goals), and that’s very human. Graycasters being drawn/trapped into a vicious tainted cycle of evil & undeath by their arcane casting source…IDK, feels cheap?
@neujack, if you want a living Graycaster to basically Defile their soul and become undead, here’s the Dragon Magazine version (where that happens).
Aka, i got your defiler’s taint right here: Dragon Magazine 315 - [PDF Document]
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I tell you what. Let’s ask for everyone’s opinion:
What should be the penalty for greycasting, as done in the Necromant’s prestige class? (pick up to 3 preferences)
- Con check or take 1d2 damage per spell
- Saving throw vs Petrification or take 1d2 damage per spell
- They build up “defiler score” like in Dragon magazine, eventually becoming a t’liz
- They harm the formation of new souls, hurting creatures ability to reproduce
- Natural creatures are immediately abnormally hostile to them.
- Grey casting can only be used on certain schools of magic. Otherwise, they’re defiling.
- Grey casting can only be used in certain places. Otherwise, they’re defiling.
- No need for any further penalties. It requires a prestige class or an undead special ability already. What’s the point of making it a prestige class if they’re not as powerful as preservers?
0 voters
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I’d personally prefer unraveling the barriers between life & death, maybe spawning more undead nearby to the casting, rather than the damage to new souls, but that’s fun too.
IDK where new souls in DS come from, but souls go the the Gray to fade way (unless you believe in reincarnation).
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Likewise, the idea that either Greycasting makes you slowly more undead or makes the Greycast area spawn undead much more frequently is quite appealing. That being said, I think this discussion should be moved to a new thread, things have gotten thoroughly derailed.
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