Been rather quiet 'round these parts for a bit so here’s something to chew on!
Athas is of course not (wholly) GrimBright nor NobleBright, that much is clear. But, when it comes to GrimDark Athas vs NobleDark Athas where do people stand? What’s your preferred style, do you run it differently for your players than your own style? In some ways this boils down to the question: Do you think Athas can and will be restored, or not? Moments like these when I wish we had polling functionality lol, so vote below! This can of course be split up among the ages as well, the Blue and Green ages having substantial aspects of GrimBright to them (which only occasionally appear in modern Athas, namely the Rual-Thaum of the Jagged Cliffs or the Zik’Chil imo)
Excellent conversation starter!
I appreciate the dark nature of Athas. I cannot completely say it is Grim Dark, but it is certainly Dark. The way I tend to enjoy playing it is that the players are survivors called to moments heroism. How they choose to be heroic shapes the tale. For instance, if the players stay in a town, they are subject to the chaos of that city and its rulers. The templar, the twists on politics, the possible nobles, trade houses, and the dangerous Veiled Alliance all contesting for shelter around the precious water and shade. All of those happen without any interference from the Sorcerer Monarch!
Now the chances I like to give the party can start small. It is possible to do good on Athas. However someone trying to fix the whole world has to deal with the ones that would capitalize on that change. Even fixing a spot in the desert could become claimed by houses or the monarchs trying to get one leg up. Dealing with the monarchs would destabilize the region, leading to more warfare. Any threat powerful enough to unseat one of the monarchs is likely going to get a lot more attention! Then - the looming threat. If the party succeeds and the Veiled Alliance wins - who is left to gather and pay the tithe? Who enforces order if the templar are dead? Are the players then pushed to be the new tyrants?
My character in my friend’s longstanding game is evil - tries to do good, but quite evil. However, the character does protect what good she finds. They are not scorned but spared as best she can from the hard decisions she feels she has to make to make the world a better place. Good is a process of choices, building towards a goal to her. Removing one of the problems or unsettling the delicate stack of bricks can make everything crumble. So it has to be done delicately!
Can Athas be saved? Certainly!
That’s what makes it an epic journey.
I enjoy the struggle of Athas, so I would say dark for sure, but not actually dark, because the sun is bright.
I have never run a hex crawl on Athas and I would love to give that a try, my current players are on a world changing quest, so it can’t ve a hex crawl.
Can Athas be restored? Not likely. But certain parts of it can be made more liveable.
The short answer is Grim Dark Athas. Go Dragon Kings, Go!!!
IMHO, Athas is best played as NobleDark or GrimBright. I say this having only today become aware of these terms.
If there’s no chance to improve the world, what’s the point?
Athas is brutal yes, but not futile. If you want to play futility, find a Ravenloft game.
Almost every Dark Sun campaign I have ran or played in turns into a survivalist game. Which is awesome, because that is one of the main aspects of Dark Sun. However, as mentioned by other posters, Dark Sun has other qualities allowing it to be ran in many forms. I always thought a Game of Thrones style campaign of intrigue with characters taking the roles of scheming Templars and aspiring nobles both jocking for position and favor of the city’s SM.
Also, running a Dune Trader campaign with the party of characters being agents in some capcity of a Merchant House. Plotting against its rivals while trying to increase its profits and grip on a monopoly would be possible with all sorts of adventures available; extracting important npcs from the grips of other Merchant Houses or Nobles or even Templars, sabotaging caravans of rival houses, or exploring old ruins for lost riches or resources. Of course neither of these campaigns really scream Grimdark to me, perhaps Nobledark.
Of course both allow for their own vested areas to be made better, but neither changes the overall character of the world. Although, the characters may have that illusion. So I would not say noblebright either. Grimbright may also be a possibility… I’ve never really come to terms with Athas’ published past such as the Blue and Green age. I’ve always ran my campaigns a bit more with a Gamma World feel and uncovering the past type of idea.
In my current campaign, the group has just learned the Merchant they have been working for and doing house missions for in the chaos fo Raam, is actually a fallen Templar from Tyr. Of course, they have been loyal to him and do not care for his past. Instead they continue to carry on his quest of discovering a hidden city beyond the mountains that is rumored to be a paradise utopia ruled by a Lord of Elemental Water… So it has the makings (without giving anything away, since my players visit this site often enough they might see this) of what could be considered a Grimbright campaign. It would be my first though, so we shall have to wait and see. Thanks for the interesting topic.
Nobledark, I think (I also had to look up what these terms meant…)
The Dragon Kings are failing - Kalak dead, Dregoth destroyed (both with the aid of players), Hamanu and NIbenay both diminished, and Raajit finally killed. (I’ve been running my campaign for over 30 years…). Only two ‘true’ Dragons remain. So Athas is, slowly, getting ‘better’ as Raajit was defeated by drawing their power back into the planet, undoing at least some of the defilement that created the Tablelands. (Though it will take many years for this to work through into the ecology.)
But with the Dragon Kings & Queens failing, the ‘elephant in the room’ in my campaign is the Thri-Kreen, original inhabitants of the planet who can now begin to imagine the possibility of sweeping humans off the Tablelands. I hope it will be an interesting conundrum for the players.
But, after 30 years, the players are powerful and have chosen the light, and as such they can, and do make interventions that they hope will one day restore Athas. Some are major interventions (like Kalak), but others more mundane - one carries seeds with them and plants trees wherever she finds a decent spot!
Well, My Athas is considerably less Dark then canon one. The world is slowly healing and there are forces of good to compensate those of evil.
Hope and optimism? Ugh, how terrible!
That was sarcasm.
Fun question. The framework is new to me and I’d never thought of it in quite these terms. I’d say I run it NobleDark, but I start with the players thinking it might be GrimDark. They’re going to be at an inflection point where the word begins to heal, but at the beginning of the campaign they shouldn’t know whether they’re going to be able to pull that off, imo. The payoff is more rewarding when it doesn’t feel inevitable; when it feels hard-earned.
I think Nobledark is the best way to approach the setting, and I think it’s the intended way. That’s why the setting has adventures to free slaves, to fight sorcerer-kings, and so on. The stakes are high, the odds are not in your favor, but you have every reason to fight for a better future.
And that’s the way I want my games to be. Right now, they’re gathering resources (and levels) to fight a new dragon that has come to Athas, with the help of an avangion. If the setting was so fatalistic, there wouldn’t be another equally powerful transformation for preservers, I think. It brings hope, however small, towards a more balanced fight.
I think Athas can be restored, but it requires players’ active desire to do so. Restoration won’t be returning to the way things were before dragons, but a new world with new problems. Much like when Tyr became a Free City, but worldwide.
As one might be able to guess from my avatar, I am very much a being of light. I subscribe to the philosophy that, “the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.” Furthermore, darkness is not actually the opposite of light, even though it is otherwise a convenient analogy that is easy for children to understand. Light will always defeat darkness.
In game terms, D&D is, and always has been, a medium of heroic expression. Good triumphs in the end, usually with sacrifice. Evil has its moment, and then inevitably fails, defeated by its own nature and the efforts of forces of Good. As in life, Good will always defeat Evil. Though the journey may be hard, and perilous, and long.
Combining all those concepts and applying them to Dark Sun… darkness in the thematic sense, alongside with evil, is there to be a challenge to overcome. The heroes are there to overcome it, though it will likely take generations. There are always solutions, so long as there are a few, or one, willing to pay the price for the many.
Thus my campaign and story ideas revolve around the redemption of Athas through the efforts and sacrifice of the heroes. Defilers destroy, and Preservers maintain… but the Restorers surpass both and rebuild Athas anew.
“In dimmest day, in darkest night,
No evil shall, escape our sight,
Let those who worship evil’s blight,
Fear our Way, fall to our Will’s might!”
– the Oath of Heroes, as recorded in the annals of the secret Order of Psionic Restorers
Brutal(get yer Character-Tree ready!); I like being fair with players; I don’t like killing off characters, just because, however, if the player’s make a mistake, I want them to suffer the consequences. Even if the die-rolls aren’t in their favor. It happens.
AD&D2e Box-Set Purist; I like to run Dark Sun, as it was, in the original box-set. Sure, some of the future supplements I’ll use, like the Monster-Manual and Dragon-Kings and stuff out of the 3e Box-set (even 4e), but I never liked the meta-plot and I was happy with the SKs have a bit of mystery to them.
Environment: My players spend a lot of time interacting and dealing with the environment and terrain; one does not simply walk from Tyr to Altaruk; one is hot during the day and cold at night: always thirsty: always hungry: there’s always sweat in their eyes etc. Dune-Traders are nice, but, they’re going to run into random-encounters.
Power: Templars got it, you don’t. Players try to get it. There are different types of power from magic, to skill in the Arena to persuasion.
Meta-Physical: Any land were people have lots of psionics, is going to run into pseudo-science.