Definitely worth it, and more in line with other choices.
Advanced Being Exaltation seems to be the only stand-out choice at 22HD. Less so for an avangion if we are sticking with racial HD, as aberrations suck compared to dragons.
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Not exactly. This salient feat is not meant to discriminate.
Advanced Being Exaltation [Advanced Being]
The change into an advanced being gives it advantages unknown to all except the mightiest creatures of the outer planes.
Prerequisites: Advanced being
Benefit: Class levels for advanced being are treated like racial hit dice for BAB and Saves. Recalculate the advanced being’s Base Attack Bonus and Saves. The advanced being now has full Base Attack Bonus and all good saves.
The emphasis is on advanced being, the trait, and not the type. Class levels are treated like racial hit dice, and the specifics are detailed.
There are no feats left to be had. UM variant of ACere gets 2 feats in addition to stellar spellcasting/manifesting advancement, and some soso class features, capped with eschew materials at 10th level. Consider that a single classed wizard or psion gets only 1 feat per 5 levels (and the Acere will be benefitting from the first level feats on both the wizard and psion side).
You will probably need a higher level entry into EP. But I would ask you to consider how painful it was to do it in 2E. Its not even remotely comparable.
Test Case 2
male stage I avangion Preserver 5/Nomad 2/Athasian Cerebremancer 10/Mind Mage 10/Evolved Paragon 1
LE Medium aberration (psionic)
Init +4+Dex; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; lifesense 60 ft.; Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages Common, Dwarvish, Tyrian; tongues
Aura detect good/evil/law/chaos, thoughts, discern lies 60 ft.
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
(+0 Dex, +0 natural)
hp 187.5+Con (28 HD)
Immune
Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +16
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Melee full attack mwk dagger +29/+24/+19/+14 1d4+Str (19-20/x2)
Ranged touch by spell +29+Dex
Base Atk +28; Grp +28+Str
Atk Options Avangion Magic, Augment Summoning, Harden Energy, Concussive Blast
Special Actions Focused Components, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Components, Psionic Reinforcement +2, Compensation, Force Touch, Painful Premonition, Psionic Reinforcement, Magical Reinforcement, Extend Spell/Power, Quicken Spell/Power
Combat Gear
Epic Spells/Day: 3; Epic Spells Known (CL 40th): Preserver Metamorphosis I, Preserver Metamorphosis II, Epic Simulacrum, Spellbook Tattoo
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 38th, Conjuration [teleportation] CL 72nd):
11th- (3)
10th- (4)
9th- 1+4
8th- 2+4
7th- 3+4
6th- 4+5
5th- 4+5
4th- 4+5
3rd- 4+5
2nd- 4+6
1st- 4+6
0th- 4
Epic Powers/Day: 3, Epic Powers Known (ML 34th): time travel (CL 72nd)
Power Points/Day: 343+Int; Nomad Powers Known (ML 34th, Psychoportation ML 72nd):
9th:
8th:
7th:
6th:
5th:
4th:
3rd:
2nd:
1st:
0th:
Abilities Str 8+12, Dex 12+14, Con 14+16, Int 15+20+7+5+3, Wis 13+14+3, Cha 10+12+3
SQ ageless, meta-crafting, meta-mastery, perfectly focused, self-sustaining, twin wells same source,
Salient Feats Advanced Being Apotheosis, Advanced Being Exaltation, Higher Order Spellcasting, Floating Feats
Epic Feats Epic Manifesting, Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Epic Practiced Spellcaster
Feats Craft Psionic Trinket, Craft Magic Trinket, Improved Initiative, Extend Power/Spell, Psionic Meditation, Practiced Manifester, Quicken Power/Spell, Craft Wand/Dorje, Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Psiotheurgist: Conjuration (teleportation), Avangion Magic, Harden Energy, Concussive Blast
Skills Psicraft 31 Ranks, Spellcraft 31 Ranks, KS: Arcana 31 Ranks, KS: Psionics 31 Ranks
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Shenanigans/Observations, round 2:
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Standard Preserver entry to AC 4/1, then AC 10, Mind Mage 10, +1 Preserver, +1 Nomad, Evolved Paragon 1
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Yes, yes, I know, Dragon Magazine, but how else will I get the stop-gap CL?
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Very tight on feats without the Avangion/Dragon Magic capstone on this version of AC and the extra metamagic/metapsionic feat.
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This is the earliest entry, due to being so many caster levels behind. 9ths aren’t picked up until ECL 23, making the first epic feat Epic Practiced Spellcaster, and the epic feats at 24 and 27 Epic Spellcasting and Epic Manifesting, casting Preserver Metamorphosis I at level 27, and taking Evolved Paragon 1 @ 28.
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Floating Feats is almost a requirement to help offset lack thereof earlier. I didn’t choose any because I’m lazy.
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Hard to make a case for any other Salient Feat choice at 22HD than AB Exaltation; you could remove the Spellcasting route in exchange for Skills.
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No Innate spell loopholes. No 18th level spells.
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There is some room for customization without delays in reaching EP, by forgoing the Spell Focus, Augment Summoning, and Psiotheurgist feats for Path Dexter and some thematic feats for a preserver on the run, but nothing earth shattering.
EDIT(s) 9: Overall, much more reasonable. In running through the math, as long as the classes are full Manifester/full casting, ECL 27 as the earliest level to cast the first metamorphosis spell. It is the same as if one took Mind Mage. CL/ML will be very different. 4/1/10/Mindbender 1/MotW 5/Arch Defiler 6 would work as a ‘standard entry’.
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This is good. Some familiar territory. I’ll say to you what I said to BMdragon.
Also this.
I’d be happy to add that capstone to UM ACere.
Is it the BAB or the saving throws that weighs more heavily?
I think there is some confusion here. Are you using psiotheugist from Dragon Magazine, which has exactly the same article name as my psiotheurgy feat but is different? And that accounts for your conjuration caster/manifester level?
When I first saw the psiotheurgy feats in Dragon Magazine, I said “wow”. That was years ago and I am still saying it.
EP is supposed to be a post epic PrC, but it is permissible in how you get there which is why it doesn’t have any hard limitations, like a set number of ranks for prerequisites. Perhaps it should. Because of the hockey stick effect you pointed out, the EP let’s these feat starved builds bounce back.
Can you elaborate a bit on your standard entry?
Edit: your standard entry has 9s on both sides and a CL/ML of 17, right?
I think it would be a good capstone. My head is turning on whether or not to try to merge a little more into AC from MM. I’ll kick that around in my head.
Early it’s the saves; spell DC’s vs other AB’s practically require it. BAB less so, though ‘yesterday I couldn’t hit a cistern fiend with a bucket, but after PM stage I, I can skip 4 rocks off its teeth!’ is funny. It impacts rays and touch spells, and negates a lot of high level armor bonuses. Later it’s the HD. Racial HD at d12 maxed at Stage IV is huge, unless I’ve misread that they hit die type doesn’t change. Also, hp is less important, but a couple hundred points difference is a difference.
Yes, the feat from Dragon Magazine that has the same name as your new one. They are frightening on anything with a respectable ML/CL. With the Salient Integrated Essence feat, they would be double HD. No one (should) use(s) these because they are ridiculous. Especially with Telepathy and epic schism.
Correct. Really Wizard 10/Psion 7/Athasian Cerebremancer 10 gets you there. You can spice it up with a couple of PrC’s, or switch the two base classes (7/10, respectively) depending on your preference.
Sorry for skipping around, I’m back to this one now. I think adding back Greater Psionic Endowment as a prereq, and eliminating the class feature language around the +2 to DC for Mastered Powers is a clean approach. Maybe add a line that says ‘mastered power focus’ also applies to Greater Psionic Endowment used on mastered powers. Then Greater PE and PE aren’t just feat taxes that never get used. The alternative is ‘when applying a feat to a mastered power would ordinarily require expenditure of your psionic focus, it doesn’t’. I don’t know off hand which other feats that would incorporate off hand, so it may only include PE/GPE.
Also, Mythic Exemplar has language in Complete Champion under skills that allows any four skills from a previous class list that might tighten up the skills section. It would inadvertently allow one to choose ACere to add Spellcraft to the list for class skills, but the more obvious choices are the various psions.
They only get what is specified in the salient feat. Later on in the metamorphosis they can get an additional 12 HP per HD via the metamorphosis spell. If they are desperate for the HP, they can try to pack that in early or use a gentle metamorphosis to get it early. With that salient feat it’s saves and BAB only, which replace that given by the class.
I see where you are going with this. As long as there are no serious implications, I can do this. I think I’ll mention Psionic Endowment and GPE but leave the prerequisites the same (meaning PE and skill focus) and drop the fortification I’m exchange (I’ll still probably call it fortification, however).
The skill list for MotW is already as good as psion. There is no reason to suggest this is a skill monkey class. If your character is human, the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny is a clean option (or Human Paragon from UA).
EDIT: Athasian Cerebremancer updated with dragon/avangion magic capstone.
EDIT 2: Updated master of the way. New mastered power fortification is as follows.
Mastered power fortification: You do not need to expend your psionic focus when using Psionic Endowment or Greater Psionic Endowment (if you have it) on a mastered power, but if you do expend your psionic focus, you add an additional 1 to the save DC of a mastered power that you manifest.
EDIT 3: Now I know why game designers require skills as prerequisites for prestige classes generally. By not having skills as a prerequisite for EP, a race to entry is sparked in the pursuit of absolute advantage. That was design error by me and I am learning about design all the time.
Since EP is a post epic PrC (or an epic+ PrC), it stands to reason that the earliest entry should be for characters already at 30th level, and the skills prerequisite should reflect this. Therefore, entry should require a skill of 33. That skill should probably be Psiotheurgy.
EDIT 4: Its not like I didn’t know. I had already sensibly implemented skill prerequisites for the Mindlord of Saragar PrC - another post epic PrC. That is 33 ranks in two skills.
EDIT 5: Advanced Being Exaltation needs to be split into two salient feats. Also, confusing verbiage is to be removed. Here is what I am thinking.
Advanced Being Attack [Advanced Being]
The change into an advanced being makes you able to attack foes relentlessly.
Prerequisites: Advanced being. Strength 30. Constitution 30.
Benefit: Your Base Attack Bonus now equals your HD. Recalculate your Base Attack Bonus. This replaces the Base Attack Bonus from your classes and racial HD (if you have any).
Advanced Being Vigor [Advanced Being]
The change into an advanced being has made you hardy.
Prerequisites: Advanced being. Wisdom 27. Dexterity 27. Constitution 27.
Benefit: All Saving Throws are now equal to your HD. Recalculate your Saving Throws. This replaces the Saving Throws from your classes and racial HD (if you have any).
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Belated questions…
Being that the original Epic rules were in the DMG, and WotC decided that core books win whenever there is a conflict between core and non-core books… does the Epic Level Handbook even technically exist, rules-wise?
Also, has anyone ever thought of building out the epic rules from the DMG rather than the ELH?
Finally, being that D&D was always intended from the beginning to exceed 20th level, what thoughts are there in making epic levels fun to play and challenge characters?
The rules in the DMG are simply copied from ELH.
It’s a huge challenge. The DM has to design adventures around characters with teleportation, powerful divination, and wishes. There is no easy answer.
Even though the ELH 3.0 was published before the DMG 3.5, the new DMG effectively updated the epic rules. As a core book overrides sourcebook as per the primacy of source rules, plus 3.5 updated material overrides 3.0 as per the edition update rules, the 3.0 epic rules effectively no longer exist as a valid ruleset… technically.
Hence my original question.
In case this bothers you, I also offer an official sidestep: the SRD is still a valid source, as it is a separate update chain from 3.5… effectively a different edition.
Though I am still curious on your thoughts on my original question. =D
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The DMG rules are updates, true, but it doesn’t update the entire content of the ELH only part of it. If I recall correctly, most of the updated material is just epic progressions, and it’s basically the same. The parts of 3.0 not updated are still valid (subject to appropriate conversion).
Are you saying that there are substantive differences?
I have seen it argued by some (and I’m not saying I agree) that the removal of the rest of the epic content was a deliberate update on the part of 3.5, at least as epic content is concerned.
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That seems quite baseless, since the ELH is used as the basis for epic content in a number of splatbooks printed in the 3.5 era.
Got any links to people making these arguments?
I didn’t keep them. I was just curious as to your thoughts.
For myself, while I feel that seeds and other aspects of the epic rules need more definition, and in some cases tweaking, I am not in favor of de-epic-ifying psionics. Lol.
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The only ELH rule that definitively bit the dust in 3.5e was the enhance item feat. I just looked it up. Ironically it was not even an epic feat.
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That is most amusing, in an ironic sort of way…
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Making adjustments to some of the salient feats. Making them more rational, while adding utility to the Psiotheurgy skill.
Advanced Being Skill Affinity [Advanced Being]
An advanced being with this feat finds within its own nature the effortless use of skills, the advanced being able to use skills to a high degree of proficiency with only a small amount of knowledge. Its abilities are boosted when making checks.
Prerequisites: Advanced being
Benefit: The Advanced Being receives an psiotheurgy bonus to all skill checks equal the ability modifier of its Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score. Additionally, it the advanced being adds its Psiotheurgy ability modifier to ability checks or opposed ability checks. For example, an advanced being with 30 ranks in Psiotheurgy gets a psiotheurgy bonus of +10 to skill checks, and an untyped +10 bonus to opposed ability checks in addition to its normal bonuses (if any). Additionally, all skills are considered class skills for the advanced being.
Note: Because this is a psiotheurgy bonus, this bonus overlaps (does not stack) with the psiotheurgy bonus for casting an epic spell as a psionic enchantment.
Rule Undead [Advanced Being]
Creatures that can be turned or rebuked are in awe of the advanced being. The advanced being turns or rebukes creatures with ease.
Prerequisites: Advanced being, ability to turn or rebuke creatures
Benefit: The Advanced Being receives a psiotheurgy bonus to Effective Turning Level equal to the ability modifier of its Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score.
Evolved Leader [Advanced Being]
An advanced being has leadership qualities far beyond ordinary creatures. Creatures are naturally drawn to the advanced being.
Prerequisites: A leadership score.
Benefit: The Advanced Being receives a psiotheurgy bonus to its leadership score equal to the ability modifier of its Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score.
EDIT 1: Updated mystical reservoir. 150XP per level per day is too generous, and lessens the worth of bolster mystical reservoir. Reduced to 100XP per level. Bolster remains the same at 25XP, which is 1/4 of mystical reservoir.
Mystical Reservoir [Advanced Being]
As an advanced being your well of power is deep indeed. You can draw on this well of power to fuel spells, powers, and magical item creation.
Prerequisites: Advanced being
Benefit: An XP cushion of 100XP per character level per day to be used for spellcasting or psionic manifesting costs, whether epic or non-epic. The mystical reservoir allows for item creation equal to 100XP per character level per month.
EDIT 2: New salient feat.
Focused Spell Power [Advanced Being] [Psionic Enchantment]
Through hard training and inclination as an advanced being, you have a strong affinity for spells from your chosen school.
Prerequisites: Advanced being. Epic spell focus the school selected.
Benefit: You gain a bonus that increases his effective caster level for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables and for caster level checks equal to the ability modifier of its Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score. For example, an advanced being with a caster level of 30 and 30 ranks in Psiotheurgy gets a psiotheurgy bonus of +10 to caster level in the school of magic selected, thus having a caster level of 40 in that school.
Special: You can choose this feat more than once, selecting another school of magic as detailed in the prerequisites.
EDIT 3: An option for less intelligent advanced beings, such as a dragon that wants a stronger focus on combat.
Psiotheurgic Spellcaster [Advanced Being] [Psionic Enchantment]
Psiotheurgy is the focus of your arcane abilities instead of intelligence or charisma (or other applicable ability score).
Prerequisites: Advanced being. Intelligence 25 OR Charisma 25 (or applicable ability score).
Benefit: For the purpose of determining bonus spells per day and maximum spell level, your primary spellcasting ability is the Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score. If you have more than one arcane spellcasting class, the bonus applies to only one of those classes. Your spell save DCs are not affected by this change.
Special: You may take this feat more than once to apply to a different arcane spellcasting class.
Psiotheurgic Manifester [Advanced Being] [Psionic Enchantment]
Psiotheurgy is the focus of your psionic abilities instead of intelligence or charisma (or other applicable ability score).
Prerequisites: Advanced being. Intelligence 25 OR Charisma 25 (or applicable ability score).
Benefit: For the purpose of determining bonus power points per day, your primary manifesting ability is the Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score. If you have more than one manifesting class, the bonus applies to only one of those classes. Your power save DCs are not affected by this change.
Special: You may take this feat more than once to apply to a different manifesting class.
EDIT 4: With these changes, it stands to reason that the progression of salient feats should be linked to ranks in psiotheurgy rather than level. My original intention was to not break the level system, but keep the strength of the advanced beings connected to their overall character level - unlike the Legends of Athas version, which front loads all of the SM abilities and robs all other advanced beings. Linking to psiotheurgy ranks accomplishes the same thing, but because ranks can be 3 ranks above character level, this nets the advanced beings an additional salient feat. Also a good thing since now there are more salient feats, advanced being exaltation is split into two feats, and so on. Will implement this change soon.
Weekend and the start of the work week we’re brutal; glad to see the work is continuing!
Turning a skill into an ability to use a modifier feels clunky. I’ll reread the text of the relevant feat soon, but it grants access to the new Psiotheurgy skill. Like other feats based on skills, all the ones you want to grant bonuses to should have Psiotheurgy # Ranks, [some relevant feature, like turn undead for the turn undead feat].
Then, these other feats grant the untyped bonus that’s equal to the ability score modifier related to the relevant feature. So, for Rule Undead, you make the requirements the Psiotheurgy skill Ranks 33, and turn/rebuke undead. The feat grants an untyped bonus to turn checks equal to your Charisma modifier.
Alternately, because it is a blend of magic and psionics, the feats could instead grant an untyped bonus of the character’s casting/manifesting stat, whichever is lower.
Add a second feat Advanced Psiotheurgy, that says you can use the modifier of your casting/manifesting stat, whichever is higher - for all Psiotheurgy feats.
Create a new skill block for Psiotheurgy, and make it (Trained Only).
Think about Psionic Enchanter (Ex) as a class feature or something acquired by metamorphosis (will think more on this), and then list the things like gentle metamorphosis under it like the Bard uses the Perform Skill (because those abilities are based on Bardic Music and Skill Ranks).
Then everything is neatly buttoned up with existing framework.
Thoughts?