Defiler Metamorphosis I and II

[Bdmdragon]

@phaaf_glien

I guess all that high magic at the Pristine Tower, all the peerless will and accomplishment of an ex-slave, and all those adventures that quite literally saved the world just pale in comparison to Lynn Abbey’s Lion King.

Dark Sun is great because mortal heroes who dare to risk it all are able to overcome the odds and defeat monstrously evil tyrants. Abbey would make these kings and queens unassailable, and the heroics of our player characters largely pointless.

I say let the PCs be the real champions. Let the Champions of Rajaat be great and powerful, but let them know death even at the hands of mortal slaves like Sadira, Rikus and Neeva.

I agree with this in abstract, but disagree in specifics of how it was done in cannon. No millennia old immortals who fought battles against the greatest forces of a high magic world for a thousand years and survived every fight should die at the hands of a handful of half trained slaves. As Redking said above:

@redking

If they were that easy to take down there would be no SMs surviving until now, period.

This^

@phaaf_glien

story of a novel that quite literally ends my favorite campaign setting. Not only is the shark jumped, but the skier does not ever again return to the water.

I’ve read Rise and Fall 4 times. It really doesn’t end anything. The situation is left barely changed from the end of the Cerulean Storm.

@phaaf_glien

Sadira, tossing her aside and her accomplishments with essentially the flick of a wrist.

No lie, this was my favorite moment of the entire book every time.

@phaaf_glien

Lynn Abbey would have them as gods, omnipotent and inviolable to our favorite mortal heroes. For Abbey, Kalak has to be a lesser sort of sorcerer-king because the lowly mortal Heroes were able to kill him.

As I said above, I do agree she empowered them a little too much.

[redking]

@phaaf_glien

Dark Sun is great because mortal heroes who dare to risk it all are able to overcome the odds and defeat monstrously evil tyrants. Abbey would make these kings and queens unassailable, and the heroics of our player characters largely pointless.

I agree. But what happened in the Cerulean Storm was a travesty. The ease in which the Dragon was taken down was just sad. I think that Troy wrote himself into a corner and took the easy way out. Whatever the case, it radically changed the setting to the setting’s detriment.

[Bdmdragon]

@redking

But what happened in the Cerulean Storm was a travesty. The ease in which the Dragon was taken down was just sad. I think that Troy wrote himself into a corner and took the easy way out.

I agree. I actually don’t have a huge problem with Kalak’s death, for example. But Borys of Ebe, the second most powerful entity under the crimson sun to a staggering degree, keeper of Rajaat’s prison, arguably the greatest of the champions, deserved a much more climactic and fitting death that truly showcased just why he’s the nightmare of nearly every creature on athas.

[Bdmdragon]

@redking

So if you want to go with another type for your defiler or preserver, go ahead. A fey, aberration or outsider ‘avangion’? Sure, why not. Perhaps if you learn the preserver metamorphosis spell from Oronis, you will be an aberration. I suspect that both Oronis and Daskinor are both aberrations (via altered beast salient feat), which accounts the peace in the North (although one is defiler and the other preserver). Lalali-Puy might even be a fey. There is no lore problem with that as there are plenty of wicked fey in the lore.

So let’s say you’ve got a preserver that goes the elemental route. He wants to be a physical sort rather than an arcane angel, so he bases his metamorphosis on the Dragon metamorphosis (not killing anyone or defiling, of course). His breath weapon is instead a cone of elemental energy coming from his hands. Alternatively, perhaps he is a defiler.

One forum I found on the old archives that seems, related, if not exactly on this topic: http://pandius.com/WotC/1039086.htm

I’m curious as to what kind of end stage appearances you see the sorcerer kings as having?

@redking

The advanced being subtype, which I must expand on soon, makes up for any deficiencies in these types.

I didn’t really notice this before. What exactly do you mean by this?

[redking]

@Bdmdragon

I didn’t really notice this before. What exactly do you mean by this?

Advanced Being is a subtype. The advanced being subtype gives access to salient feats. All of the Advanced Beings, no matter what their main type, are more similar than different to each other on account of having the Advanced Being subtype.

@Bdmdragon

I’m curious as to what kind of end stage appearances you see the sorcerer kings as having?

I’ll check it out.

[redking]

@Bdmdragon

One forum I found on the old archives that seems, related, if not exactly on this topic: http://pandius.com/WotC/1039086.htm

I read it. The phenotypical differences I take as a given. If Hamanu wants to be a Chinese style Lion-Dragon, why not?

[Bdmdragon]

@redking

Advanced Being is a subtype. The advanced being subtype gives access to salient feats. All of the Advanced Beings, no matter what their main type, are more similar than different to each other on account of having the Advanced Being subtype.

I knew this. I guess your phrasing in the part I quoted implied there was something else that I wasn’t yet aware of.

[Bdmdragon]

@redking

The phenotypical differences I take as a given. If Hamanu wants to be a Chinese style Lion-Dragon, why not?

I agree with this. The part I was most interested in, however, was where one of the posters started making unique transformations spells that would have (presumably) eventually created some statistical differences between the individuals undergoing them. As your system also allows for such things, I was wondering if you had any ideas about statistical divergence from the “standard” metamorphosis in your own game. Since I already stated up one sorcerer monarch above, I am curious as too if you want her, or say, Nibenay or Hamanu, the two I am most likely to work on next, to have any unique statistical benefits as part of their first 3 or 4 spells?

[redking]

@Bdmdragon

Since I already stated up one sorcerer monarch above, I am curious as too if you want her, or say, Nibenay or Hamanu, the two I am most likely to work on next, to have any unique statistical benefits as part of their first 3 or 4 spells?

It depends on how you view the canon. If Rajaat was responsible for transforming them, then the first spell is Anoint the Champion. If you accept RaFoADK, then in addition to trolls, Hamanu has a genocidal focus for humans in addition to trolls, and perhaps dragons as well.

Hamanu: do you remember ‘eyes of the lion’ from RaFoADK? How about ‘corruptive gaze’ from my metamorphosis seed write up? The actual appearance of the gaze could be fluffed up as yellow lights coming out of Hamanu’s eyes like laser beams.

Nibenay: Signature Spells (Sp) (from Champion of Rajaat template in LoA).

Daskinor, if you are doing a far-realm metamorphosis: Alternate Form (Su) (lifted from the pseudonatural creature template): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

[Bdmdragon]

@redking

‘eyes of the lion

eyes of fire actually. Myron actually has it stated in LoA. I could use that or a gaze attack version.
Having Nibenay have signature spells makes sense.
What about Lalali-Puy?

@redking

Daskinor, if you are doing a far-realm metamorphosis: Alternate Form (Su) (lifted from the pseudonatural creature template): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

I would probably make a statistically more relevant version of this, but I like the idea.

[redking]

@Bdmdragon

eyes of fire actually

I’m talking about the end part of Rise when the eyes of the lion king strike Hamanu. Did Hamanu himself actually have Myron’s eyes of fire?

@Bdmdragon

What about Lalali-Puy?

It depends. Is Lalali-Puy a dragon type, or a fey type via the altered beast salient feat? Anyway, perhaps her long nails have a venomous attack.

[Bdmdragon]

@redking

Did Hamanu himself actually have Myron’s eyes of fire?

Yep. I have the book open in front of me. He used it at least twice off screen in the past. He was so disturbed by it at the time that he tried to kill himself after the second time (he failed, obviously).

@redking

I’m talking about the end part of Rise when the eyes of the lion king strike Hamanu.

Are you talking about the when Hamanu is a raging dragon and tries to breach the city walls, and the eyes on images of him channel the Spirit of Urik’s power? Because if you are talking about when he finally meets the guardian as a mortal at the very end, there is nothing like what you describe.

@redking

It depends. Is Lalali-Puy a dragon type, or a fey type via the altered beast salient feat? Anyway, perhaps her long nails have a venomous attack.

She’s a dragon in my stats above, though I could swap something for altered beast. Poison seems fine, though I’d have to check what sorts of things a metamorphosis granted poison could do.

[redking]

@Bdmdragon

Are you talking about the when Hamanu is a raging dragon and tries to breach the city walls, and the eyes on images of him channel the Spirit of Urik’s power?

That’s exactly what I am talking about. He gets blasted by eye lasers and falls on his back.

@Bdmdragon

She’s a dragon in my stats above, though I could swap something for altered beast. Poison seems fine, though I’d have to check what sorts of things a metamorphosis granted poison could do.

Poison is listed under venomous attack. You could just make it part of her claw attack.

She doesn’t have to be fey. I think dragon is fine, and actually has more pathos. Especially if we are considering her thrall spirit of the land to be a thing.

[Bdmdragon]

@redking

That’s exactly what I am talking about. He gets blasted by eye lasers and falls on his back.

Found that. Still, he “canonically” has eyes of fire, even if he doesn’t like using it. As I said, either works.

@redking

She doesn’t have to be fey. I think dragon is fine, and actually has more pathos.

…? Not quite sure what this is supposed to mean.

@redking

Especially if we are considering her thrall spirit of the land to be a thing.

Oh yes.

@redking

Poison is listed under venomous attack. You could just make it part of her claw attack.

Found it. Thanks.

[redking]

@Bdmdragon

…? Not quite sure what this is supposed to mean.

The idea of a spirit of the land being in thrall to a dragon has more emotional resonance than being in thrall of a fellow fey.

[Bdmdragon]

Ah, that makes sense.

[redking]

By the way @Bdmdragon, you should start a new thread for your Sorcerer Monarchs.

[Bdmdragon]

@redking

Advanced Being is a subtype. The advanced being subtype gives access to salient feats. All of the Advanced Beings, no matter what their main type, are more similar than different to each other on account of having the Advanced Being subtype.

Speaking of the Advanced Being subtype, what creatures under your rules will classify as Advanced Beings? For example, will Clerical Elementals and Spirit Initiates be Advanced Beings or merely follow some form of revised prestige class? Do you have any plans to do anything with Shadow Shifters (LoA)?

[redking]

@Bdmdragon

Speaking of the Advanced Being subtype, what creatures under your rules will classify as Advanced Beings? For example, will Clerical Elementals and Spirit Initiates be Advanced Beings or merely follow some form of revised prestige class?

Athas dot org chose not to implement advanced being rules for clerics and druids. The clerical type advanced beings appear only as rules in 2E Dragon Kings, and make no appearance in any Dark Sun products as an NPC. To me this says that the clerical advanced beings were an afterthought. I agree with Athas dot org’s decision. That said, my framework can easily apply to clerical advanced beings without any alteration. If someone wants to do the work, that’s ok by me.

My preference however is for a purely clerical transformation that isn’t an advanced being. A feat like ‘elemental leadership’ in which the clerical ‘elemental lord’ attracts followers of its elemental subtype would be great flavor.

@Bdmdragon

Do you have any plans to do anything with Shadow Shifters (LoA)?

No, because the shadow power source for magic doesn’t exist in my headcanon. But my advanced being framework works perfectly for them. Someone just has to work out the psionic enchantments.

[redking]

I have had a think about it, and can offer a middle ground approach to clerical transformations combined with psionics. How?

Quite simply, epic clerics possessing epic psionic abilities can cast psionic enchantments, but because divine magic does not blend quite as well with psionics as arcane magic, they can never apply the advanced being subtype using their spells. What this means is that while they can cast psionic enchantments based on the metamophosis seed and undergo changes, they never access advanced being salient feats.

I think this is an excellent compromise, and I think I will roll it into my framework. Below, the psiotheology skill. Its a pared down divine version of the psiotheurgy skill.

Psiotheology [Epic] [Psionic Enchantment]

This feat gives access to the skill Knowledge (psiotheology), which is psionic enchantment as a field of study. Psiotheology enhances the characters ability to use metamorphosis magic and divine epic spells when those spells are bolstered by expending an epic power slot at the same time.

Prerequisite: Epic spellcasting, epic manifesting, Spellcraft 24 ranks. Knowledge (religion OR nature). Psicraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 24 ranks.

Benefit: The character can now take ranks in the Knowledge (psiotheology) skill. Each rank of Knowledge (psiotheology) provides +1 psiotheology bonus to Spellcraft checks of epic spells using the if an epic power slot is expended while casting the epic spell.

Gentle Metamorphosis (Ex): You can use the metamorphosis spell on yourself or another creature without the spell counting towards the maximum 10 uses of metamorphosis that a single creature can withstand. When casting gentle metamorphosis, you may not use a focus structure (a singular exception for the Pristine Tower). You can cast one additional metamorphosis on an individual (or yourself) without counting against the ten-time limit once for every 12 ranks you have in this skill.

Psiotheology benefits do not stack with psiotheurgy and vice versa.

New Skill: Knowledge (psiotheology).

This skill grants knowledge of divine magical and psionic manipulation. There are no skill checks for this skill. Each rank in this skill provides +1 psiotheology bonus to Spellcraft checks of epic spells using the if an epic power slot is expended while casting the epic spell.